Extra bill from electrician - legal?

[WhyNot]

Hello all and happy new year

We contracted an electrician to renew our appartment installation, it was a big work with new cables, sockets/lights destroyed walls etc.
We have an Angebot which we paid 50% upront and the rest when job was completed according to the Rechnung that was sent to us. We paid always on day of receiving said bills. Last payment was 23.12

The offer was to renew the complete Appartment and make it standard with VDE**

Today the electrician sent a Mehraufwand Rechnung which is around 90% of the initial value, so almost doubling our costs. The added work was never discussed and there was never another Angebot. I also had to take some holidays on days that he didnt appear but he is claiming that he had to move some days around because the closing of the walls was not done on time. But he admited his workers were assigned to other jobs and that is why he also had to move the appoitment with us.

The only thing I agree is that he is claiming some hours to move furniture around and connect an extra socket in the cellar - he didn't detail how much hours he is charging for this and how many hours he considers lost because of the shift in appoitments.
Also after his work he rejected to fix the doorbell and now we have to contract another electrician to fix it as it stopped working when he did his work. As i said it was not a small repair job.


Now, I understand that there is what my opinion is and what the law says, but I am not sure if I have any rights or actually if I can fight it - if yes, which lawyer speciality would make sense to contact?

Thank you

[LeonG]

I'm surprised they didn't roll it into the first bill. In my experience, getting a quote here is like a guess. They detail the amount of hours and materials they think they'll need. The bill can end up vastly different. You asked for the extra work though. IMO you are better off whining a bit about the bill being high and see if they'll lower it than to go to lawyer. Whining is free. Lawyers cost money.

[WhyNot]

Thank you for your yes whining we are doing and there are some items that we didn't ask for it. He broke a pipe while cutting the walls and now included this in the description of extra work? Also he left us without a working doorbell and now we have to contract a different electrician. We have never asked to change anything on the doorbell! They just messes some wires somewhere.

What I don't understand is that they gave us an ANGEBOT NOT KOSTENVORANSCHLAG. So if they estimate too less to get the contract they can just stiff it up to the customer?

But yes maybe this will be just a big stupid tax to learn from...
What is the next escalation? He will send a Mahnung or is there something worse?

[dstanners]

Sounds like you've had bad luck with the electrician, and he's being a bit of a d:ck - charging you for repairs to his own errors and leaving you with a disconnected doorbell. Broadly I agree with LeonG's approach though - getting lawyers involved at this stage is costly.

I assume you have at least spoken with the electrician and raised these issues? If not, that should be your first step.

If he is ignoring you, you could make it a little more formal. You've received an invoice, and at least some of that invoice seems payable, so don't ignore it. Write / email (so you have a chain of evidence) stating that the invoice is incorrect, as it includes his time repairing his own errors (specify how much), and ignores the fact that he has left you with a disconnected doorbell. Ask him to reissue the invoice after adjusting for those two points (or come back and fix the doorbell), and that once the invoice is correct you will pay it.

That puts the ball in his court (you have requested a valid invoice), rather than leaving it in yours (you are sitting on an unpaid invoice).

The above approach is aimed at trying to find a fair agreement for both - or at least one you can both live with.

Don't spend money on lawyers unless you really need to. Even if the above approach is unsuccessful, unless this is a significant sum, I would tend to chalk it down to experience and make sure that you discuss chargeable time/matters with the tradesmen as things progress in future.

[WhyNot]

Thanks once again!, yes I do not want to contact lawyer if I do not have to. As you mentioned it seems I had bad luck. We wrote back that we were not in agreement of the bill, and that he didnt specify the different amounts of effort for each of the items. He just wrote 60h and in the description wrote several points,

As I mentioned I could understand around 10 maybe 1h if he wants to push it. but i was just shocked that he tries to pass this on without any previous discussion. He mentions that he had to shift some meetings because of the wall repair took longer, but he only had asked us to tell him when it was finished never mentioned of any impact. I had also taken 2 holidays from work on days that he didnt show up... it is just a mess

Thank you that I managed to vent out a bit it was not the start of the year I was expecting

[Fraufruit]

Maybe you'll consider getting Rechtschutzversicherung this year.

Definitely withhold some money until your doorbell is working.

[Nixon]

If you are paying for Rechtsschutzversicherung, call them and ask about phone consultations. They usually have somebody that would call you.
We have utilized them in a couple of situations, at least they can tell you what are your options.

[Nixon]

Maybe you'll consider getting Rechtschutzversicherung this year.

Sending it at the same time

[WhyNot]

unfortunately no Rechtschutz Otherwise I would have triggered it already. live an learn

Thank you for the answers, hopefully we will discuss today the points we do not agree and then see what to do next

[LeonG]

What I don't understand is that they gave us an ANGEBOT NOT KOSTENVORANSCHLAG. So if they estimate too less to get the contract they can just stiff it up to the customer?

Yes, kind of. There is also a possibility that the estimate was too high and your bill ends up being lower.

Did you sign off on the hours he spent every day? Next time, keep a tab on the hours. Also if they brought a helper when no one was needed. I've had a plumber bring a very green apprentice and tell me beforehand he is not going to charge me for him because he's only there to watch.

I agree he shouldn't be charging you hours to fix damage that he caused.

[WhyNot]

Yeah I haven't kept any log, my understanding was that an Angebot is binding and even he took longer to finish it would be on his bad estimation. That how it works with my job I can't say it will take 20h and then bill for 40 if I messed up.

And he is exactly doubling the amount of working hours from initial estimation, not even some random number that seems calculated it is a big fat round number only.

I'm more annoyed that he didn't communicate transparently and honestly he said "let us know when the walls are ready" and now he wants to charge for waiting for it... But maybe legally he can do it.

The other points on the bill (like his own mistakes and additional travel costs) I believe we can fight it, and today another electrician will come check the doorbell I hope he can give his expert opinion that it was done due to the previous reparations. But I am not sure I can just send the bill to the first one..

In summary to have tradesman at home one should just take holidays from work and create detailed report everyday

[Fraufruit]

If the doorbell was working prior to the work but not after, it seems obvious that it is the guy's fault. Did he refuse to come fix it? I doubt he will pay another electrician but you can try.

[WhyNot]

Yes he simply refused to even look at it. And said I had to. Contact Hausverwaltung, but the issue is that all other appartment on this building have working doorbell.. So yes I'm almost sure they messed up while connecting phone lines or others maybe they pulled the wrong wires somewhere. I'll try to have it sorted without breaking anymore walls otherwise is really a mess.

Yes in the end I'll have to write off this in my head. I was expecting some extra costs but not double the price in the end. Just wished people would be honest upfront and don't act as everything is easy and manageable and then take advantage.

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions for the future

[PandaMunich]

If someone is looking for a reliable electrician with a lot of experience in Munich, who charges exactly what he had written in the offer:

Manfred Bräutigam
Grundelstraße 1
81825 München
Tel. 089 4271345

He just rewired my 1930ies house, no mess, he used the existing old Bergmann tubes in the walls. He connected the new wires to the old ones and then he pulled out the old wires through the tubes until the new ones came out at the other end.
But he is planning to retire in 2026, so you need to be quick about it.

[WhyNot]

Good that you have had a good experience... And no surprise in the bill

[WhyNot]

So my wife managed to have a call with the elektriker and actually we are even more baffled. He now claims we misunderstood and he is not charging us for delays in finishing the walls (although he wrote this on the bill) but he claims his employee wrote that twice he came and couldn't do any work due to the state of the walls - this is simply not true

When my wife asked why there was not at least some communication or during all the daily calls/messages saying there are impediments he just said "well the bill is the communication"

My wife handled most of the communication and now we wrote him a protocol with our messages and replies from him with detailed dates and where is clear he never once mentioned he could not work due to our constraints (except he had to spend sometime moving a few furniture to other room - which we already said we agree it is an extra cost/time). Although we do not have exact times of check-in/out in this matter to contest specific amount of hours we would say 10-15h if he would say 20h of extra work, we would be annoyed but paying without an hassle, he wants 3x this

He mentioned that he needs to check his employee reports/protocols again in more detail, so he didn't completely reject our claims, we are expecting an updated bill, although I have a feeling that he will make a tiny small modification to show flexibility, and still charge us this huge amount.

Another electrician came and he mention it will require at least another 500€ to fix the doorbell as he needs to spend few hours finding the correct cables in the building and manage to drive them to our apartment as the old ones seem cut somewhere - to find this we would have to break most of the entrance walls.

I am pretty sure it comes with a lot of headaches but with this experience it seems that being a tradesman is better than white-collar jobs

[WhyNot]

I have another quick question
I read on internet that

"Zahlbar sofort” bedeutet eine unmittelbare Zahlung. “Ohne Abzug” bedeutet, es gibt keinen Rabatt. Rechtlich greift aber das 30-tägige Zahlungsziel gemäß Bürgerlichem Gesetzbuch. Der Schuldner kann sich also trotz “sofortiger” Zahlungsverpflichtung 30 Tage Zeit lassen, ehe ihn der Gläubiger in Verzug setzen kann.
"

My question is, even if he says "fällig sofort" and every day in delay there is Verzugszinsen, do I still have the 30days to pay or is there any other clause to look for in regards to this?

Because he just sent an email where he messed up the attachments (I cannot open the files) but he is "threatening" me to read the hinweiß about verzugszinsen.... which actually he didn't put on this "Mehraufwand Rechnung" on the other bill it was and I paid on the day, but I am trying to understand from when can he claim I am late!

Can someone just send a bill for several k€ and say pay today or you incurr in penalties? i hope this is another of his "scare" tactics only

[Fraufruit]

It looks to me like you have 2 choices - pay the bill or hire a lawyer.

[LeonG]

Another electrician came and he mention it will require at least another 500€ to fix the doorbell as he needs to spend few hours finding the correct cables in the building and manage to drive them to our apartment as the old ones seem cut somewhere - to find this we would have to break most of the entrance walls.

I am pretty sure it comes with a lot of headaches but with this experience it seems that being a tradesman is better than white-collar jobs

Get a wireless doorbell.

Tradesmen also have to hound clients sometimes when they don't pay and they can also be facing the question whether it's worth it to sue.

[WhyNot]

Another electrician came and he mention it will require at least another 500€ to fix the doorbell as he needs to spend few hours finding the correct cables in the building and manage to drive them to our apartment as the old ones seem cut somewhere - to find this we would have to break most of the entrance walls.

I am pretty sure it comes with a lot of headaches but with this experience it seems that being a tradesman is better than white-collar jobs

Get a wireless doorbell.

Tradesmen also have to hound clients sometimes when they don't pay and they can also be facing the question whether it's worth it to sue.

unfortunately the wireless one will not work with the overall building system on front door. if I could install a digital/newer one I would.

Now I am ready to pay, I am just waiting for the date of the bill to be updated for this year as we got the bill this year and like this I can deduct the allowed amount on next year's taxes. Today he sent an email where he says I can pay the bill minus a small "kulanz" agreement that he agrees to reduce - but I still haven't gotten the new bill/paper with the corrected amount.

What I would like to understand also for future reference is if some business can just send a bill to be paid "on the day" otherwise there will be delayed payment ppenalty, isn't there a minimum time