Including English working years in German pension insurance

[GaryC]

Rentenauskunft

Ok I have an update. I recently completed the Consideration of periods of school education and periods of educational training measures form and I now have a Feststellungsbescheid from DRV which includes the following information:

B Monate für die Wartezeit (Mindestversicherungszeit)

Danach sind zu berücksichtigen:
- 111 Monate Beitragszeit
- 13 Monate Anrechnungszeit
- 136 Monate Beitragszeit nach den Rechtsvorschriften eines anderen EU-Mitgliedstaats
- 35 Monate gleichgestellte Zeit nach den Rechtsvorschriften eines anderen EU-Mitgliedstaats

295 months / 24,58 years

D Altersrenten

Die Altersrente für langjährig Versicherte kann gezahlt werden, wenn
- das maßgebende Lebensalter erreicht und
- die Wartezeit erfüllt ist.
Die Wartezeit für diese Rente beträgt 35 Jahre mit Beitragszeiten, Ersatzzeiten, Anrechnungszeiten und Berücksichtigungszeiten. Diese Wartezeit ist derzeit nicht erfüllt.
Es fehlen noch 10 Jahre und 5 Monate.

Die Altersrente für besonders langjährig Versicherte kann gezahlt werden, wenn
- das 65. Lebensjahr vollendet und
- die Wartezeit erfüllt ist.

... lots of text ...

Die Wartezeit von 45 Jahren ist derzeit nicht erfüllt.
Es fehlen noch 35 Jahre und 9 Monate.

Am I correct that the DRV have accepted my years of employment and education in the UK and these years are now included in my German Wartezeit?

Do you know why Die Altersrente für langjährig Versicherte and Die Altersrente für besonders langjährig Versicherte show Es fehlen noch 10 Jahre und 5 Monate and Es fehlen noch 35 Jahre und 9 Monate, respectively?

I can now also:

• Download the Rentenauskunft & Versicherungsverlauf from the DRV. They display the same information as the Feststellungsbescheid
• View my "Gesamtübersicht" on the "Digitale Rentenübersicht" website

The Versicherungsverlauf now shows the months in the right column which match the months listed under B Monate für die Wartezeit:

z2.png

The only periods that will be added to your German record are your UK study periods, not your UK employment - the latter is part of your UK record and will feed into the aggregation calculation.

You need to check your German-only Versicherungsverlauf - what you have posted is your aggregation version of that. On the German-only version, which is part of the innerstaatliche Berechnung you should now see the periods from age 17 until you finished your UK studies. You will end up with a number of months on that schedule which will be broadly the number of months you have contributed in Germany plus your UK study periods.

Then you have what you have posted which is your zwischenstaatliche Berechnung, aggregating your now updated German record with your entire UK record and excluding any months that overlap. You can check that it includes both records, which it appears to do.

DRV then look at doing the innerstaatliche and zwischenstaatliche Berechnungen. Germany has 3 versions to its pension system. The normal pension requiring 5 years (60 months), a pension for long service requiring 35 years (420 months) and one for exceptionally long service requiring 45 years (540) months.

You clearly have more than 5 years so would get a pension based on the better of the 2 calculations at normal pension age.

Currently you do not have an aggregated total of 35 years. You are missing 10 years and 5 months (125 months) to qualify for that.

You also do not have sufficient for the 45 years version, though it appears also in that context that they have not considered aggregation as they suggest you need a further 35 years and 9 months or 429 months to reach 45 years. I am not sure why they work that way as I got a Rentenauskunft like yours but also one based on the 45-year version which did take my UK record into account. Weird!

[GaryC]

A few months ago I received a letter from the German Pension Insurance authority asking me to provide information about the missing years in my pension history. These were years I was studying and working in the UK (I am a British citizen). I sent them as much proof as I could, and also gave them my UK national insurance number. I understand that while these years don't provide any extra Points towards my German Insurance, they do count as years, meaning I can reach 35 or 45 years worked, which would enable me to claim my pension earlier. Very nice.

I retire at the end of 2028, so am starting the same process, recently paying off the gaps in my UK NI contributions before last week's deadline.

Concerning the requirement of the DRV to fill in the "Lückenauskunft" for the periods I was studying / working in the UK, an English friend based in France told me that I need to contact the "Future International Pensions" hotline in the UK and they will supply an official certificate that will explain all the gaps for the DRV.

https://www.gov.uk/international-pension-centre

Has anyone here taken that route? (apologies if I overlooked a post that dealt with this already)

There is no point contacting the DWP International Pension Centre (your friend is confused and mixing the IPC with the Future Pension Centre but you don't call either of them) as your UK study periods are not on your UK record and DRV will ask for your UK record themselves.

You need to provide your study information to DRV and ask them to get your UK record from DWP. They exchange such information electronically.

Once they have all that sorted, they will send a Rentenauskunft including an innerstaatliche Berechnung based on your German record (enhanced by those UK study years) and a zwischenstaatliche Berechnung based on aggregating your UK and German records (ignoring UK periods that overlap with German periods).

[alma.freya]

Rentenauskunft

Ok I have an update. I recently completed the Consideration of periods of school education and periods of educational training measures form and I now have a Feststellungsbescheid from DRV which includes the following information:

B Monate für die Wartezeit (Mindestversicherungszeit)

Danach sind zu berücksichtigen:
- 111 Monate Beitragszeit
- 13 Monate Anrechnungszeit
- 136 Monate Beitragszeit nach den Rechtsvorschriften eines anderen EU-Mitgliedstaats
- 35 Monate gleichgestellte Zeit nach den Rechtsvorschriften eines anderen EU-Mitgliedstaats

295 months / 24,58 years

D Altersrenten

Die Altersrente für langjährig Versicherte kann gezahlt werden, wenn
- das maßgebende Lebensalter erreicht und
- die Wartezeit erfüllt ist.
Die Wartezeit für diese Rente beträgt 35 Jahre mit Beitragszeiten, Ersatzzeiten, Anrechnungszeiten und Berücksichtigungszeiten. Diese Wartezeit ist derzeit nicht erfüllt.
Es fehlen noch 10 Jahre und 5 Monate.

Die Altersrente für besonders langjährig Versicherte kann gezahlt werden, wenn
- das 65. Lebensjahr vollendet und
- die Wartezeit erfüllt ist.

... lots of text ...

Die Wartezeit von 45 Jahren ist derzeit nicht erfüllt.
Es fehlen noch 35 Jahre und 9 Monate.

Am I correct that the DRV have accepted my years of employment and education in the UK and these years are now included in my German Wartezeit?

Do you know why Die Altersrente für langjährig Versicherte and Die Altersrente für besonders langjährig Versicherte show Es fehlen noch 10 Jahre und 5 Monate and Es fehlen noch 35 Jahre und 9 Monate, respectively?

I can now also:

• Download the Rentenauskunft & Versicherungsverlauf from the DRV. They display the same information as the Feststellungsbescheid
• View my "Gesamtübersicht" on the "Digitale Rentenübersicht" website

The Versicherungsverlauf now shows the months in the right column which match the months listed under B Monate für die Wartezeit:

z2.png

The only periods that will be added to your German record are your UK study periods, not your UK employment - the latter is part of your UK record and will feed into the aggregation calculation.

You need to check your German-only Versicherungsverlauf - what you have posted is your aggregation version of that. On the German-only version, which is part of the innerstaatliche Berechnung you should now see the periods from age 17 until you finished your UK studies. You will end up with a number of months on that schedule which will be broadly the number of months you have contributed in Germany plus your UK study periods.

Here is a copy of my German Versicherungsverlauf. Under Deutschland Allgemeine Rentenversicherung it includes my German employment and my UK study periods:

Screenshot_20250409_173838_Firefox.jpg (737.44 KiB) Viewed 10769 times

Then you have what you have posted which is your zwischenstaatliche Berechnung, aggregating your now updated German record with your entire UK record and excluding any months that overlap. You can check that it includes both records, which it appears to do.

DRV then look at doing the innerstaatliche and zwischenstaatliche Berechnungen. Germany has 3 versions to its pension system. The normal pension requiring 5 years (60 months), a pension for long service requiring 35 years (420 months) and one for exceptionally long service requiring 45 years (540) months.

You clearly have more than 5 years so would get a pension based on the better of the 2 calculations at normal pension age.

Currently you do not have an aggregated total of 35 years. You are missing 10 years and 5 months (125 months) to qualify for that.

This suggests they have included 24 years and 7 months in their total, going back to April 2000 (the tax year I turned 16).

If I work another 10 years and 5 months in Germany, I will qualify for the full 35 year pension when I reach pension age?

You also do not have sufficient for the 45 years version, though it appears also in that context that they have not considered aggregation as they suggest you need a further 35 years and 9 months or 429 months to reach 45 years. I am not sure why they work that way as I got a Rentenauskunft like yours but also one based on the 45-year version which did take my UK record into account. Weird!

Yeah I have enough years left to reach 45 years. Perhaps I'll enquire about this.

[GaryC]

I am not sure what that schedule actually is because there is a difference between your actual German record and your aggregated record used to do the zwischenstaatliche Berechnung. I cannot log into the system and, of course, already have my pension but everything I ever received had a list of that sort showing my domestic German record (including UK study periods) and one that looks like yours which is used for the EU calculation of your pension.

Perhaps things have changed or you are looking at something different to what you think?

The reason the record (aggregated, not domestic) goes back to when you were 15 is because your NI record starts in the UK tax year in which you turned 16, so you would have been 15 for part of that time unless you were born on 6 April. And, you got 3 freebee NI years for those in which you turned 16, 17 and 18. But they are not part of your German domestic record.

Anyway, 10 years and 5 months more (whether in Germany or elsewhere, so far as they do not overlap with German periods) will enable you to claim at 63. Whether that is a good choice for you is something you will need to figure out. For me it was as I could not add more Entgeltpunkte but if you need to add more points to your pension, retiring early may not be cost effective - personal choice...

[alma.freya]

I am not sure what that schedule actually is because there is a difference between your actual German record and your aggregated record used to do the zwischenstaatliche Berechnung. I cannot log into the system and, of course, already have my pension but everything I ever received had a list of that sort showing my domestic German record (including UK study periods) and one that looks like yours which is used for the EU calculation of your pension.

Perhaps things have changed or you are looking at something different to what you think?

The reason the record (aggregated, not domestic) goes back to when you were 15 is because your NI record starts in the UK tax year in which you turned 16, so you would have been 15 for part of that time unless you were born on 6 April. And, you got 3 freebee NI years for those in which you turned 16, 17 and 18. But they are not part of your German domestic record.

Anyway, 10 years and 5 months more (whether in Germany or elsewhere, so far as they do not overlap with German periods) will enable you to claim at 63. Whether that is a good choice for you is something you will need to figure out. For me it was as I could not add more Entgeltpunkte but if you need to add more points to your pension, retiring early may not be cost effective - personal choice...

My Versicherungsverlauf and Rentenauskunft have the same schedule however the Versicherungsverlauf doesn't have the months in the right hand column. That said, the pages inside the Rentenauskunft showing this information include the words Versicherungsverlauf so I'm not sure if it's just an appendix; the pages after include the Berechnung der persönlichen Entgeltpunkte.

Screenshot_20250409_195621_Firefox.jpg (122.51 KiB) Viewed 10727 times

Screenshot_20250409_195645_Firefox.jpg (153.95 KiB) Viewed 10727 times

Is 35 years only significant in that you can retire earlier (with a financial penalty)? If you work more than 35 years, you can continue accruing pension points? I think I got a little confused with the UK system where once you hit 35 qualifying years you receive the max pension which is a fixed value for everyone.

[GaryC]

Sounds like they may have changed the format or something - who knows.

So the pages that follow - do they give your the 2 calculations "innerstaatliche" and "zwischenstaatliche"?

If so, at the moment they can only be based on normal pension age with 5 years minimum. Do they show the same amount?

35 years is relevant only for the option to retire early (as is the 45 years). If you choose to go at normal pension age, then your earnings points will be whatever they are at that time. The system is not like the UK rules with a maximum number of years.

[alma.freya]

So the pages that follow - do they give your the 2 calculations "innerstaatliche" and "zwischenstaatliche"?

If so, at the moment they can only be based on normal pension age with 5 years minimum. Do they show the same amount?

Yes there is an Innerstaatlichen Berechnung and a Zwischenstaatlichen Berechnung both showing the same Entgeltpunkte.

There is also a Berechnung der Rente page showing the same EUR amount for both "innerstaatliche" and "zwischenstaatliche".

[GaryC]

Have fun working through the maths - does your head in - but it means for you that the amount of pension does not change under the EU aggregation calculation, other than the fact that if you needed 35 years, you would qualify under that but not necessarily using your domestic record.

[alma.freya]

Have fun working through the maths - does your head in - but it means for you that the amount of pension does not change under the EU aggregation calculation, other than the fact that if you needed 35 years, you would qualify under that but not necessarily using your domestic record.

Thanks. It's less the pension amount I am interested in, rather my qualifying years.

[GaryC]

Then I think that all you need to do is look at the combined schedule and count the months (1 day "occupied" in a month makes the whole month count) to see how that compares with expectations, with the numbers in the summary and with what that means going forward.