Quack doctors

[pappnase]

This one needs a bit of background first.
Background
So my son is trans, autistic and suffers from chronic pain.
He has also over the past few years been hospitalised twice, once for an eating disorder and once for suicidal ideation.
In his attempts to deal with all of this he has largely been on his own for the last 3 years since his mum died and as you can imagine that's a lot.
So he has been working with someone from social services trying to find suitable doctors etc to help.
It's been hard but he's gotten on with it and found good people regarding all of the problems except the chronic pain.

However today he went to visit a new doctor regarding the pain stuff to see if he could help. Well it didn't go well.

After this quack explained that Heavy metal in vaccines could cause autism (No I WILL NOT Engage on this it's bullshit) he then went on to suggest magnet wave therapy and electrolysis footbaths for detox, then suggested that rebalancing his gut biome might also "fix" the transgender thing. At which point kiddo rightly walked out.

Now we knew in advance that this was going to be a private appointment so I'm expecting some kind of bill from this quack, but I'm so angry that I want to tell him to fuck off.

I suspect that since we booked an appointment and the appointment happened, we will have to pay, but is there anything I can do with regards regulatory bodies that will affect this guys practice etc?
In the UK I would report him to the general medical council, but I don't know about here, this kind of quackery seems to be more protected.

[JanxSpirit]

Not sure off the bat but the Verbraucherzentrale is a good place to start:

Überhöhte Rechnung beim Arzt: Das können Sie tun
Bei einer Individuellen Gesundheitsleistung (IGeL) müssen Ärztinnen und Ärzte die voraussichtlichen Kosten vorab angeben. Wird es am Ende deutlich teurer, müssen Patient:innen das nicht hinnehmen.

Excessive bill from the doctor: This is what you can do
For an individual health service (IGeL), doctors must state the expected costs in advance. If it ends up being significantly more expensive, patients do not have to accept this.

More: https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wiss ... -tun-11978

[pappnase]

Thanks, once the bill arrives, that will be interesting.

[Bayrisch_Dude]

There was a lad here who opened a type of magnet wave shop a few year back. He was a well respected local sport person. He owned and started the fitness studio I've been a member of about 14 year ago.

Something in that wet noodle between his ears went to mush and he searched for investors into this magnet therapy. He even had magnetic doggie beds on offer. Blankets, waistcoats, caps, gloves, etc.

Well, his investors were none too pleased when this was determined to be rubbish (fraud). Off to the Knast in Landsberg he went for about 18 months.

If this is a Dr Med you visited, this need go to a higher authority level, is possible. It's no more medicine than the odd palm reader at the medieval fests and märkte.

[pappnase]

Yeah the guy was a medical doctor. I've no idea how they get away with this shit, but it looks like most of the alt-med stuff is protected and big chunks of it like homeopathy and chiropractic are even covered by various Kasse.
Oh well back to looking for a reputable doctor I guess.

[Krieg]

Even some weird non-medical treatment for terminal illnesses are allowed and paid by the health insurance, like music therapy, done in hospitals.

P.S., Bob Marley's cancer, never forget.

[snowingagain]

Sure. I hate quacks. But by the time Marley decided to go the the quack, it was terminal. Regular docs had misdiagnosed. He then ignored it (the way one does). Only got surgery late, and he opted to be conservative about that. When he fell later collapsed, it had spread to his brain. At that time not (even now though things have improved) nothing you can really do. My cousin had the same Melanoma. She ignored it too (thought it was a bee sting on her foot). But despite ignoring it for ages, she was luckier. Still got her in the end though, but 20 years later.

[bethannbitt]

Even some weird non-medical treatment for terminal illnesses are allowed and paid by the health insurance, like music therapy, done in hospitals.

I am actually quite ok with health insurance paying for things such as music, art, psychological, mindfulness therapy … for terminally ill patients because I think it can significantly improve the quality of the life left. I find these to be very different than some con therapy that promises a cure.

[Emkay]

I’m so sorry your son has these issues. The doctor sounds shockingly terrible! Is he definitely a medical doctor or a combination of Heilpraktiker? How is he registered. I think there are directories online.

If you do receive a bill, maybe write a stern letter of complaint stating that if he pursues you for payment, you will report him to various regulatory bodies. Doctors these days can’t afford even negative online reviews.

This is what ChatGPT says about complaints against medical doctors. Includes what’s already been mentioned. There’s a different answer on complaints about Heilpraktikers.

‘If you have concerns or complaints about a private medical doctor in Germany, here are the steps you can follow to address your complaint:

1. Contact the State Medical Association (Ärztekammer): Every licensed doctor in Germany must be a member of a regional Medical Association (Landesärztekammer), which is responsible for overseeing medical conduct and ethics. You can submit a formal complaint to the Ärztekammer in the state where the doctor practices. They may investigate issues such as professional misconduct, negligence, or ethical breaches.
2. Medical Review Boards (Schlichtungsstelle): Some state Medical Associations operate medical review boards to handle patient complaints and disputes outside of court. This can be a helpful option if you are looking for a neutral assessment of potential malpractice. The board will review your case and provide an expert opinion, which could help with a resolution or with pursuing a legal claim.
3. Consult with a Lawyer: If you believe there was significant malpractice or harm, you may wish to consult a lawyer specializing in medical law (Medizinrecht). A lawyer can help you understand your rights and options and may assist in filing a lawsuit if warranted.
4. Health Insurance Provider: If the treatment was covered by insurance (even partially), you may be able to report the issue to your health insurance provider. They might investigate the case, particularly if the doctor’s conduct could affect billing or reimbursement. Insurance providers sometimes have quality control departments to handle such complaints.
5. Contact the Patient Ombudsman (Unabhängige Patientenberatung Deutschland, UPD): The UPD is an independent patient advocacy service that provides free advice and support on health issues. They can guide you on how to file complaints, understand your rights, and explore alternative options.
6. Consumer Protection Agencies (Verbraucherzentrale): The Verbraucherzentrale can offer advice if you feel you were misled or mistreated. Although they primarily focus on consumer issues, they can provide guidance on filing complaints against medical professionals and may refer you to the appropriate authority.
7. File a Criminal Complaint (Strafanzeige) (if appropriate): In cases of severe negligence, fraud, or criminal behavior, you can file a criminal complaint with the police. This is typically a last resort for serious cases where criminal liability might be involved.

Before filing your complaint, it’s helpful to collect all relevant documentation, including medical records, receipts, communication, and any expert opinions if available. Having these documents organized will strengthen your case and make it easier for authorities to review your complaint effectively.’

I really hope that you find a good doctor to help your son. I wish you and your family all the very best.

[pappnase]

Thanks Emkay, yes this guy really is a registered doctor.

I'm coming down from my outrage high and will decide what to when/if a bill arrives.
I don't think either of us have the energy for a prolonged fight over this, so we might just pay it and move on, but if we do decide to go further
then one of those suggestions might be the way to go, so thanks for that list.

[Krieg]

Even some weird non-medical treatment for terminal illnesses are allowed and paid by the health insurance, like music therapy, done in hospitals.

I am actually quite ok with health insurance paying for things such as music, art, psychological, mindfulness therapy … for terminally ill patients because I think it can significantly improve the quality of the life left. I find these to be very different than some con therapy that promises a cure.

In a perfect world what you are suggesting is great, but you might (or might not) check what is Musiktherapie in Germany, and more important, what they actually do in real life. At least in the hospital we have seen it in action, it was a couple of people dressing like red Indians and playing bongos, singing some tribal nonsense and dancing in front of a person who is already unconscious. Coming from South America I found the whole thing horrible even if the terminally ill patient was not involved. On top of that it is loud and disturb other patients, the doctors we know in that hospital hate it.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) Musiktherapie is not really cover by public health insurance by default, it is cover only if you take extra insurance, but it is covered by private insurance. The problem is that Musiktherapie is big and have some better applications, like helping disable kids and adults, but in some states this might be covered by the local support for disabilities.

PS. Psychotherapie is as well limited in Germany, AFAIK it is covered by the public health insurance only when it is connected to what they decide it is a real illness, for example when you need it to treat depression. This is a bit ironic considering that you can basically get a Kur just by telling your doctor you want to have one and most people take them as paid holidays.

P.P.S., Patients of serious illnesses can receive psychological support if they want to take it and for some illnesses offering the option is AFAIK required.

[snowingagain]

In a perfect world what you are suggesting is great, but you might (or might not) check what is Musiktherapie in Germany, and more important, what they actually do in real life. At least in the hospital we have seen it in action, it was a couple of people dressing like red Indians and playing bongos, singing some tribal nonsense and dancing in front of a person who is already unconscious. Coming from South America I found the whole thing horrible even if the terminally ill patient was not involved. On top of that it is loud and disturb other patients, the doctors we know in that hospital hate it.

This is unbelievable. Not the music therapy that I have some knowledge about in the UK. That is absolutely wild.

[bethannbitt]

Even some weird non-medical treatment for terminal illnesses are allowed and paid by the health insurance, like music therapy, done in hospitals.

I am actually quite ok with health insurance paying for things such as music, art, psychological, mindfulness therapy … for terminally ill patients because I think it can significantly improve the quality of the life left. I find these to be very different than some con therapy that promises a cure.

In a perfect world what you are suggesting is great, but you might (or might not) check what is Musiktherapie in Germany, and more important, what they actually do in real life. At least in the hospital we have seen it in action, it was a couple of people dressing like red Indians and playing bongos, singing some tribal nonsense and dancing in front of a person who is already unconscious. Coming from South America I found the whole thing horrible even if the terminally ill patient was not involved. On top of that it is loud and disturb other patients, the doctors we know in that hospital hate it.

Well, that’s not what I had in mind. So much for the perfect world. Not the music therapy I experienced with patients in the US.

[LeonG]

In a perfect world what you are suggesting is great, but you might (or might not) check what is Musiktherapie in Germany, and more important, what they actually do in real life. At least in the hospital we have seen it in action, it was a couple of people dressing like red Indians and playing bongos, singing some tribal nonsense and dancing in front of a person who is already unconscious. Coming from South America I found the whole thing horrible even if the terminally ill patient was not involved. On top of that it is loud and disturb other patients, the doctors we know in that hospital hate it.

Wow, almost sounds like they are trying to make the patient cringe so bad they wake up from a coma and leg it out of the hospital.

PS. Psychotherapie is as well limited in Germany, AFAIK it is covered by the public health insurance only when it is connected to what they decide it is a real illness, for example when you need it to treat depression. This is a bit ironic considering that you can basically get a Kur just by telling your doctor you want to have one and most people take them as paid holidays.

I've been to kur twice and the only person I met who was healthy and on holiday was a wife who decided to tag along and she had to pay for herself. Mine were both paid for by DRV. It's not really a holiday. You get a schedule of appointments and therapies every day. You normally have evenings and weekends off.

[pappnase]

OK Well just to close the topic, bill arrived today for 130 euros, which consisted 90 for his consultation and 40 for a report.
The report exists it's 2 sides of A4 and mostly consists of recommending a bunch of other expensive treatments, but it is what he said in advance and is in line with his published billing structure.
It looks like it's just a thing and that the guy can recommend whatever alternative treatments he wants, so the reason I can't find who to complain to is that the system doesn't think he has done anything wrong.
I really can't face fighting over such a small amount, but the boy has learned a valuable lesson and will research other prospective doctors more carefully in future.