Family reunification with EU nationals through son in law

[Frantic]

We are applying for an EU residence permit (probably the word is not correct) for the parent of my Wife. They are extra EU citizen.
Apparently they can get a (i guess yearly) residence permit through me, being me an EU citizen with proven mobility in the EU. In other words I moved to another EU country (Germany) and stayed there for long time.

In this page: https://www.bamf.de/EN/Themen/Migration ... -node.html i believe you can see what I am referring to, section "Direct ancestors"


Immigration office and some online research told us that they will lose the residence permit if they leave and stay out of Germany for more than 6 month. From what we understood this means they just need to come in Germany twice per year and stay even just one day.
I have the doubt we are misunderstanding the rule. For example, if I consider the determination of the fiscal residence, the rule is to stay in a country 6 months plus one day. So the rule count the total amount of days you stayed in a country in one year. My concern is that this rule is actually also what is applied in order to keep the residence permit we are applying.
Anyone know something about this or can suggest some german keywords I can use in my google search ?

[Alberto]

Short answer:
sorry, I don't know.

But I heard similar stories before (never really paid too much attention though) and I thought it's much less generous than you're saying. I thought they can stay outside Germany a maximum total of 182days per year. I even thought (maybe wrong) that even once you got your own permanent residenship right, if you move out for a little too long time (6months a year? or was it 3 months? whatever...), this right vanishes.

Besides, I find very generous that "simply" because their daugther has the right to reside in Germany via her husband, they get this right too. Don't take me wrong, not saying this is bad, just not what I would have guessed.

[Frantic]

My Wife always got the right to reside in Germany through normal residency application (and job) and not because she married me a pair of years ago. She got, on my contrary, also the German citizenship.
This residence permit is something that comes from EU regulation in someway.
She, as German Citizen, could bring her parent in Germany just in the case one of the two dies. In this case, being her the only child, she is entitled to bring in Germany the survived parent in order to take care of her/him.
Anyway was totally new to us this possibility. A pair of years ago we consulted a lawyer (supposedly) specialized in immigration topic and he did not mention this possibility and told us there was no way.

[Franklan]

While it might be true, there is a big problem: Their health insurance. At a certain age, and when one has never contributed to the health insurance system in Germany, the Krankenkassen are allowed to not take you as member, they do not have the duty to do so. That's where the real problem begins.

The old forum had experts for that, the new forum not yet, I am afraid.

[sam]

That's just guidance the law is https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 8-20110616

From a very quick look:

They must be your dependent - Article 2(2)(d)

That must be evidenced in documents - Article 10(2)(d)

There are additional conditions especially if you are not a worker/self employed - Article 7(2)

[pappnase]

The old forum had experts for that, the new forum not yet, I am afraid.

One of those experts would often recommend a German language site called info4alien.

The site is entirely conducted in German, but I've found that with modern online translation software and a bit of patience that can be "managed". (You will need to navigate the official paperwork in German anyway, so consider it practice).
If you feel up to it, perhaps a question there might get you a better quality answer than us lot speculating and interpreting the laws.

For example the page I linked to above has an introduction which translates

The "open forum" is for anyone who has questions about immigration law. This can include stays for family reunification, taking up employment, etc. Other legal areas, such as citizenship law, can also be addressed. The answers are usually given by experienced users or by government officials.
There are currently almost 24,000 registered members. So far, over 400,000 posts have been written in more than 48,000 topics.

[fro90]

The EU directive must be transposed into national law - the law in question is Freizügigkeitsgesetz/EU.

I see two main problems with this:
Firstly, Anmeldung --> if not living in Germany and the plan is just to return twice per year without any intention of making it a residence - permanent or not -, then this is a Scheinanmeldung since the person/people do not live there. If they deregister from Germany, then the local Ausländerbehörde is no longer responsible for them.
Secondly, health insurance. This will be a requirement for the residence permit since it is mandatory for anyone living in Germany. It's not so easy to get into the public system above the age of 55. The authorities will most definitely make it a requirement for the permanent residence permit or any extension of the dependent permits. You are required to have them as your dependents, so you would need to foot the bill at the end of the day, if they don't pay themselves..

For me, it's too risky.

[bethannbitt]

In our case residing in Germany and having BaFin approved health insurance were unequivocal conditions for getting our initial residency permits. We started out with valid travel insurance that met the BaFin conditions. But in order to switch over to GKK insurance we ran into a catch-22 cuz the initial residency permit had to be for greater than a year (one year seems to be standard). Our generous case worker gave my husband an initial 366 day permit to allow him to hopefully get things sorted out, which he did with the help of a good agent and a hefty sum of €. Getting private health insurance would have been ungodly expensive and not covered certain pre-existing conditions.

I’m not advising or claiming to know all the rules, but simply describing how it was for us, a married couple (hubby born in Germany and emigrated to the US with German citizen parents at nearly age 6). We got into the GKK at 55+ and retired. My anecdotal research tells me that we were extraordinarily lucky. Best of luck to others. I found it to be quite a stressful process. But it’s 5 years later and I’m in.

[sam]

The EU directive must be transposed into national law - the law in question is Freizügigkeitsgesetz/EU.

Which is also helpfully officially translated into English (German version takes priority in case of error)
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/engl ... html#p0036

I was also unsure about the Anmeldung. I think the point is if you live in country - even for a few years - and are then out of the country for six months your permit is liable to be cancelled, not that you can get a residents permit on the basis of an intention just to visit once every six months.

[bethannbitt]

the point is if you live in country - even for a few years - and are then out of the country for six months your permit is liable to be cancelled, not that you can get a residents permit on the basis of an intention just to visit once every six months.

Residing is obviously something above and beyond visiting. In my case, I gotta be here 6 months out of the year or request a special dispensation.

[Frantic]

We already call tkk and they told us they can take them and sent us the papers to fill.

The main doubt is about this 6 months. I believe it's 6 months total in a year. My (stubborn) wife keep believing that it's just they don't have to stay out of Germany 6 months in a row because the lady at the Auslandbehorde said something like "if they leave for more than 6 months they lose the permit"

[bethannbitt]

So glad you got the insurance biz in order! That’s great news.

[Frantic]

Update.
So it was like i thought and read. Today we were at the immigration office for submitting the application and the lady told that they have to stay in Germany (neither in EU, just Germany) 6 months plus 1 days in one year otherwise the permit will be revoked.

First thought of my wife was "how they can check?" my first thought was "ok, now what we do ?"

In any case, the German authorities, FinanzAmt on top, will given for grant that they will reside 6 months plus one, making them automatically fiscal resident in Germany.
Taxation is not an issue, He is retired and the rent it takes in its country is peanut converted in euro. Way way below the thresold of 23.208 euro for married couple (actually it is below also the thresold for single )

And my wife explained actually better her talk with TKK. After she explained the situation and shared the age of her father the TKK guy on the phone said "Ok we send you all the formular and you send back them once they have the residence permit". It means that technically nothing is confirmed.