I don't want to qualify for a German pension...

[nina_glyndwr]

Dear All,

It's great to see Toytown in a new format. I used to frequent the old forum about 10 to 15 years ago.

Anyway, my problem is this. I have always worked on a freelance basis in Germany apart from a short stint as a medical secretary in the 90s. According to the Deutsche Rentenversicherung, I have 16 months of contributions.

I have, however, always kept up my National Insurance contributions in the UK and I only have to make one more contribution to qualify for a full UK pension. Under the Brexit agreement, if you only get a UK pension, the UK will also take on your health insurance costs. Since returning to Germany after a stint in London, I've only worked freelance and have to pay private health insurance, which I can never claim on since my excess is EUR 4,500 a year. This deal - with the UK allowing me to join a statutory health insurance company and not having to pay the contributions myself - would be worth a lot to me. At least 700 to 1,000 euros a month.

HOWEVER, I had an upsetting phone conversation with the Rentenversicherung yesterday. The woman said that they could take my UK contributions into account and I could qualify for a German pension. HORROR! Then I'd never be able to get any medical bill recompensed and I'd be paying all bills for the rest of my life.

She did also say that I didn't have to claim a German pension, even if I qualified, but then, if the UK heard about that, would they force me to take it so that the UK could then stop covering my health care?

I used to earn an okay living from translating from German into English, but this year, I am only earning a third of what I normally earn and I had wanted to maybe do more teaching in 5 years' time (I'd have to scrape by until then) so that I wouldn't qualify for a pension. If you teach and earn more than EUR 538 per month (after any deductions for, say, books), then you also have to pay contributions to the Rentenversicherung (even though you're not employed).

What to do? How can I avoid not having a GErman pension. It will be so little that it won't cover 700 euros of health insurance contributions a month. (I get these figures from other freelance colleagues.)

[Alberto]

If you have only a UK pension, the UK pays your German KK, whereas if you have a pension from both UK and DE, the KK cost is on you?

[nina_glyndwr]

Yes.

If I only get a UK pension, then I can choose a statutory health insurance scheme (e.g. AOK, DAK) and I just pay the extra costs.

I read a comment on The Guardian newspaper in which a Dutch national who had worked for 40 years in the UK was now living in France with her British husband and as she only got a UK pension, the UK govt. was covering her health insurance costs.

Apparently, it's cheaper than having all the people return to the UK for healthcare in old age.

[LeonG]

What you need to find out is what the UK will do. It is even possible if you apply for pension in the UK and they know you are in Germany that they tell you to apply here first or they might even apply for you.

If not and you get your foot in the door with a German krankenkasse before you end up with a German pension, I wonder if it is a possibility to stay as a self payer.

[Prosie]

Hi! Also glad to have found the new forum
I have just started investigating this same pension/health cover topic and have found the following:
https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/healthcare-co ... ing-abroad
It says the country you've contributed to for the longest is responsible for your health care.
Which is hopeful
There is also a contact number where presumably you can get more advice and info. Still a bit early for me to call - who knows what may change in the next few years before I draw my British state pension.

[LeonG]

It says the country you've contributed to for the longest is responsible for your health care.
Which is hopeful

It looks to me like that is only if you are taking pension from two (or more) EU countries but aren't living in either (or one) of them. Their example is for someone taking pension from France and the UK while living in Spain.

The paragraph right above that one, says that if you are receiving a pension from the country that you live in now as well as the UK, the country you live in may be responsible for your healthcare.

[Fietsrad]

Seems the rules are complicated, you cannot be sure how they work, or are interpreted, or what the situation might be on retirement.

The rules might change too.

And what if the UK rejoins the EU?

[Feierabend]

Maybe this article from the Verbraucherzentrale helps?
https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wiss ... 20Mitglied.

[nina_glyndwr]

Maybe this article from the Verbraucherzentrale helps?
https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wiss ... 20Mitglied.

I think that applies to employees. I'm not an employee and haven't been since I returned to Germany late in 1999. But thanks for trying to answer the question.

I've spoken to the AOK - that was about a year ago and they confirmed that, yes, if I only got a UK pension, the UK government would take things over for me and I could join something like the AOK.

[nina_glyndwr]

What you need to find out is what the UK will do. It is even possible if you apply for pension in the UK and they know you are in Germany that they tell you to apply here first or they might even apply for you.

If not and you get your foot in the door with a German krankenkasse before you end up with a German pension, I wonder if it is a possibility to stay as a self payer.

I already pay to a private German Krankenkasse. And I still have to pay the first 4,500 euros worth of medical and dental bills every year. I'd have to pay at least 700 euros a month - or EUR 8,400 a year - just for health care costs. To have everything covered. I would have to carry on paying that even when I'm 90 or more. And we live long in my family - both the German and Welsh sides.

[nina_glyndwr]

She did also say that I didn't have to claim a German pension, even if I qualified, but then, if the UK heard about that, would they force me to take it so that the UK could then stop covering my health care?

Does anyone know about that situation? Could I not make any claim for a German pension and hope that the UK would just pay me the UK pension and cover health care costs?

I looked into the Rentenversicherung thing a bit more. You need to make 60 months or 5 years of contributions to qualify for any pension in Germany. I have 16 months.

However, if you have paid into another country's system, then you will get a pro-rata amount of what you would have had, had you paid in for 5 years. Given that I only earned DM 2,000 after tax, how much do you reckon that will be? Peanuts. Obviously, not enough to cover at least health insurance contributions of at least 700 euros a month, right?

So.. could I just not claim the pension and just claim the full UK one that also comes with the assumption of healthcare contributions?

[Fietsrad]

Maybe this article from the Verbraucherzentrale helps?
https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wiss ... 20Mitglied.

I think that applies to employees. I'm not an employee and haven't been since I returned to Germany late in 1999. But thanks for trying to answer the question.

I've spoken to the AOK - that was about a year ago and they confirmed that, yes, if I only got a UK pension, the UK government would take things over for me and I could join something like the AOK.

I would try to get the info in writing, not just verbal.

[PandaMunich]

Maybe this article from the Verbraucherzentrale helps?
https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wiss ... 20Mitglied.

I think that applies to employees. I'm not an employee and haven't been since I returned to Germany late in 1999. But thanks for trying to answer the question.

I've spoken to the AOK - that was about a year ago and they confirmed that, yes, if I only got a UK pension, the UK government would take things over for me and I could join something like the AOK.

I would try to get the info in writing, not just verbal.

It is the way Nina says, since it is that way because of article 25 of the EC Regulation No 883/2004 of 29.04.2004: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2004/ ... ?locale=en

And the UK agreed in the Withdrawal Agreement (see from Article 30): https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-a ... reement_en
that the EU social security regulations will continue to apply for persons like Nina who had been living in Germany on 31.12.2020, i.e. at the end of the transition period, i.e. on the last day before Brexit became effective on 01.01.2021.

We had also talked about this in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=877#p877

[PandaMunich]

I looked into the Rentenversicherung thing a bit more. You need to make 60 months or 5 years of contributions to qualify for any pension in Germany. I have 16 months.

However, if you have paid into another country's system, then you will get a pro-rata amount of what you would have had, had you paid in for 5 years. Given that I only earned DM 2,000 after tax, how much do you reckon that will be? Peanuts. Obviously, not enough to cover at least health insurance contributions of at least 700 euros a month, right?

So.. could I just not claim the pension and just claim the full UK one that also comes with the assumption of healthcare contributions?

Yes.

Solution: never tell DRV about your contributions in other (former) Member States, so they will never check whether you have fulfilled the 5 years together with those contribution periods.

And even if you had kicked off this process by telling DRV at some point in the past about your former UK public pension contribution periods, just never file a German Rentenantrag, and you will never get a German social security pension.
Period.
See here: https://www-deutsche--rentenversicherun ... r_pto=wapp

[LeonG]

Solution: never tell DRV about your contributions in other (former) Member States, so they will never check whether you have fulfilled the 5 years together with those contribution periods.

And even if you had kicked off this process by telling DRV at some point in the past about your former UK public pension contribution periods, just never file a German Rentenantrag, and you will never get a German social security pension.
Period.
See here: https://www-deutsche--rentenversicherun ... r_pto=wapp

Is there any chance that the UK might apply to DRV on her behalf if they knew she was in Germany? I know it is the case in reverse, that is if you apply in Germany, DRV will automatically apply for you in other countries you have contributed in.

[PandaMunich]

I know it is the case in reverse, that is if you apply in Germany, DRV will automatically apply for you in other countries you have contributed in.

Only if you tell them about these contributions in the other countries...

[GaryC]

I know it is the case in reverse, that is if you apply in Germany, DRV will automatically apply for you in other countries you have contributed in.

Only if you tell them about these contributions in the other countries...

I agree. You have to claim a pension - it's not something that just lands in your bank. If you don't inform DWP or DRV that you have worked in another country then they will just treat you like any other person claiming a domestic pension. And the regulation in 883/2004 refer to receiving a pension, not being entitled to one.

[nina_glyndwr]

I know it is the case in reverse, that is if you apply in Germany, DRV will automatically apply for you in other countries you have contributed in.

Only if you tell them about these contributions in the other countries...

Well, the people in the UK know that I live in Germany as they send me the request for payment every year around this time. I got the latest request about a week or two ago.

[Prosie]

The application form for the British State Pension specifically asks for full details of time spent abroad, including your reference number with the Rentenversicherung. Quoting the wording from my husband's application form a couple of years ago: "We may need to forward details of your United Kingdom claim to them and exchange information with them about the contributions made and any entitlement that you may have under their scheme"

[Prosie]

Here's a link to the form. It still has the same wording in Part 7.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ire-abroad