hTTi

Hello Forum, and please, only serious replies. 
I have just received a "Vorladung als Beschuldigter" with the charge of "Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger und terroristischer Organasationen"
After a brief chat with the  Kriminalhauptkommissarin, she said that it had to do with the Internet.
I had to google this charge to understand it, § 86a. It would seem that I've posted something naughty on Twitter, or X as it is known today. Maybe John Cleese as from Faulty Towers. Or I recall saying something like, German sportswomen and men should be able to say " I give all for Germany"  I'll leave the German translation out, as it is apparently forbidden to say that you would give all for your country in Germany. So I don't get it. What are your thoughts. Thanks for constructive replies.

PS. Why are most of the forums locked ?

Maybe John Cleese as from Faulty Towers. Or I recall saying something like...

It may be helpful to know exactly what you said.

(Forums aren't locked for me.)

Bogies wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:26 am [..] Why are most of the forums locked ?

The Top level topics...

- North Germany
- Central regions
- South Germany
- German legalese, paper work, red tape
- German news and information
- German technology themes
- Miscellaneous themes

... are locked.

Locked means that members cannot create second level topics under these top level topics.

This is done to keep the place kind of tidy. If - for example - somebody wants a place called "South Germany/Augsburg" or "South Germany/Nuremberg", that is certainly doable. Just sent a PM or add it to "Miscellaneous themes/About this site/Improvement suggestions".

However, If anybody could freely create second level topics we would end up with microscopic topics like "South Germany/Gauting", "South Germany/Gilching", "South Germany/Garching" and "South Germany/Freiham".

If you find a Top Level that fits your needs, but none of the second level topics fit, use the "Miscellaneous" second level.

If this gets substantial enough, a top level or second level will be created eventually.

Hard to say what's going on without actually knowing what you said or wrote or posted.
The bold part of StGB §86a as shown below is likely your problem.
However, without actually knowing what you said in what context -> nobody can help you.

StGB §86a

Use of symbols of unconstitutional and terrorist organisations

(1) Whoever

1. disseminates the symbols of one of the political parties or organisations designated in section 86 (1) nos. 1, 2 and 4 or (2) in Germany or uses them publicly, in a meeting or in content (section 11 (3)) disseminated by themselves or

2. produces, stocks, imports or exports content (section 11 (3)) which depicts or contains such a symbol for dissemination or use in Germany or abroad in a manner referred to in no. 1

incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Symbols within the meaning of subsection (1) are, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms and their parts, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those referred to in sentence 1 are deemed to be equivalent to them.

(3) Section 86 (4) and (5) applies accordingly.

Bogies wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:26 am Or I recall saying something like, German sportswomen and men should be able to say " I give all for Germany" 

I am not a lawyer. I suggest you ask one.

"During the Nazi era, the slogan "Everything for Germany" was used alongside "Germany awake" as the slogan of the Sturmabteilung (SA), and is therefore a hallmark of an unconstitutional organisation."
From: https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/ist-d ... 15975.html (DeepL)

@Bogies

What have they proposed to do about the charges? Do you have to go to court, pay a fine, etc.?

Thanks for getting back so fast. I've just an invitation to the police for now. I think someone's getting back on me at X or twitter. I believe I said, in German . That it must be possible for a sportsperson or politician to say " I want to give ALL FOR GERMANY." . After Herr Höcke was charged for saying those words in a speech. There was no Vorsatz, or intent to undermine the German Government, or to spread propaganda, it was just my standpoint.

Bogies wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 2:43 pm [..] it was just my standpoint.

Nice to know that you have that standpoint. Explicitly voicing that standpoint is considered a criminal act in Germany, as far as I know.

One of the hard lessons for foreigners living in Germany is that we can't say certain random things that would be considered normal or at least acceptable in our home countries. I have had multiple interactions with official Germany (mostly as a witness or complainant), and I find it reasonable, accommodating, and forgiving while simultaneously terse, irritated, and mildly baffling. You'll probably be fine. Be honest ... then spend the rest of your time in Germany being careful because once is a mistake, twice is a pattern, and three times is a habit.

Bogies wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 2:43 pm Thanks for getting back so fast. I've just an invitation to the police for now. I think someone's getting back on me at X or twitter. I believe I said, in German . That it must be possible for a sportsperson or politician to say " I want to give ALL FOR GERMANY." . After Herr Höcke was charged for saying those words in a speech. There was no Vorsatz, or intent to undermine the German Government, or to spread propaganda, it was just my standpoint.

By the way, I wouldn't think it was personal. In all likelihood, you replied to the post of someone whose account is actively monitored by the authorities, e.g., they've been harassed before, they post illegal content often, or they are a public figure, and you just got caught up in the result. It is doubtful that your post alone drove the official contact.

Hello again. Yes, it was a reply to a discussion, I simply said that having been naturalized a German, it should be okay for me to say " I would give all for Germany", in German. That's the charge, I've given it to a lawyer to sort out. Makes one wonder, though.

Well, since you likely had to attend an integration course or at least take a test, the ignorance defense might be out the window. Good luck. I hope your fine isn't too high.

Bogies wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:05 pm Yes, it was a reply to a discussion, I simply said that having been naturalized a German, it should be okay for me to say " I would give all for Germany", in German. That's the charge, I've given it to a lawyer to sort out. Makes one wonder, though.

AlexTr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:11 pm Well, since you likely had to attend an integration course or at least take a test, the ignorance defense might be out the window.

Excuse me, but could you please point me towards the question in the test "Leben in Deutschland" where he learnt that he is not allowed to say "I would give all for Germany."?
You can find all possible questions of the test "Leben in Deutschland" here: https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/ ... nFile&v=10

Yes, I had no idea until this thread came up that this specific phrase had such connotations. Done the Einbürgerungstest, not an Integrationkurs. Nothing like that was mentioned on the app.

The kids are just now talking about Höcke and his use of the phrase. To them it is completely obvious that the phrase is politically charged. Honestly, although I can't think of a context in which I would use it, I would have had no idea that it is problematic.

Every day is a school day.

PandaMunich wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:35 pm

Bogies wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:05 pm Yes, it was a reply to a discussion, I simply said that having been naturalized a German, it should be okay for me to say " I would give all for Germany", in German. That's the charge, I've given it to a lawyer to sort out. Makes one wonder, though.

AlexTr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:11 pm Well, since you likely had to attend an integration course or at least take a test, the ignorance defense might be out the window.

Excuse me, but could you please point me towards the question in the test "Leben in Deutschland" where he learnt that he is not allowed to say "I would give all for Germany."?
You can find all possible questions of the test "Leben in Deutschland" here: https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/ ... nFile&v=10

No need for aggression. Things change.

I see that you posted a test sample from 2022. When I took it in 2014, the class covered this topic and the test questions were not static. As a matter of fact, when comparing notes with my classmates, we each had questions the others did not. Of course, we also had an instructor who was himself a naturalized citizen and I had to correct him when he said that German landlord/tenant law allows the landlord to enter the rental unit at will.

Regardless, the legal principle ignorantia legis neminem excusat applies. Even so, I hope the OP's fine isn't too high and that they don't catch any prison time. Three years seems quite a lot for just not knowing.

I would be remiss not to add that my first landlady in Germany was a leader in the local CDU and a lawyer. We frequently had coffee together in the early afternoon during which she gave me a seminar on multiple areas of German law. She was thrilled that I was so interested, and I was very lucky. I also undertook to read as much German law as possible (in English, natch) because I don't like to be unaware of the rules where I am.

Hello Alex, thanks for your encouraging words, gulp. Three years prison . Thank-you Panda for the link, just went through the 190 pages, not a question about forbidden phrases. I'll let you know how things turn out. Up to now I've a clean sheet, so I'll be very apologetic and hope for a slap on the wrist, and a naughty boy case. The lawyer reckons that having the mentality of a Brit is a good thing.

Bogies wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:09 am Thank-you Panda for the link, just went through the 190 pages, not a question about forbidden phrases.

Yes, I know.
This isn't even something many natives know.

Bogies wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:09 am I'll let you know how things turn out. Up to now I've a clean sheet, so I'll be very apologetic and hope for a slap on the wrist, and a naughty boy case. The lawyer reckons that having the mentality of a Brit is a good thing.

Don't worry, I would be very much surprised if the case isn't simply dismissed (= Einstellung des Verfahrens): https://www-fachanwalt-de.translate.goo ... r_pto=wapp

Bogies wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:09 am Hello Alex, thanks for your encouraging words, gulp. Three years prison . Thank-you Panda for the link, just went through the 190 pages, not a question about forbidden phrases. I'll let you know how things turn out. Up to now I've a clean sheet, so I'll be very apologetic and hope for a slap on the wrist, and a naughty boy case. The lawyer reckons that having the mentality of a Brit is a good thing.

Did you take an integration course or test and when? If Panda's document is the most current and it reflects what you did, that also might work in your favor. You also may not have been required to do the test because of a variety of factors. That could also help. As I said before, I find official Germany to be baffling but fair. I think you'll get a fine and likely a small-ish one because it's not like you said one of the big, obvious no-nos. I think this will just turn out to be another good story you tell at the kneipe with friends.

If it makes you feel better, my German wife also did not know these things were illegal until I told her ten years ago. I don't find it at all unusual (or shameful or laughable) that you were unaware.

AlexTR wrote:
Did you take an integration course or test and when?

Yes, 2017 simply because of the Brexit. My wife is German and I thought it would make travelling in europe easier.

This incident really shows how there is now such a very fine line between patriotism, nationalism and terrorism.

Whoever would apply the terrorism law to such a statement concerning sports has obviously never watched the Ryder Cup.