hTTi

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:32 pm**

Fraufruit wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:33 pm When a UK citizen has been paying said taxes all of their life in order to receive the health care, I can see why it rubs the wrong way when a "foreigner" can get the same benefits after only being there a short time. Having said that, I have no idea how long one has to wait after moving there to take advantage of the system.

I'm sure this rubs the perennially angry GB News consuming gammons the wrong way.

People don't get better healthcare the longer they pay in; it isn't like a public pension. You pay taxes, that money is immediately spend on healthcare services. Everyone gets the same service.

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:51 pm**

Emkay wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:11 pm My question about possibly moving back to the UK as a German citizen was just out of curiosity. I’ve paid UK taxes and national insurance (includes healthcare) since the age of 16. My father too since the 1960s. Of course we were always foreigners in the UK though it does seem somewhat unjust that I couldn’t easily legally move back to my own UK paid for property and live off my entirely UK based pensions and savings. However, as you mentioned, other ‘foreigners’ do move to the UK and most likely receive most benefits. Probably without a wait time. I’m just thankful that hopefully, moving to back to the UK won’t ever be a significant necessity.

Yeah, that's the deal with citizenship vs. residency. It's easy to lose permanent resident status, for example if you leave. Nobody asks how long you were a pr or how long you paid taxes.

My mom had a cousin who immigrated to Canada with his parents when he was a child. For some reason, he never applied for citizenship. Some 40 yrs. later, the guy had some problem with the law and ended up in jail so they revoked his pr and deported him. That easy. Nobody asks how long he paid taxes in Canada or how he's never paid taxes in Iceland. The passport decides.

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 8:14 pm**

Fraufruit wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:33 pm When a UK citizen has been paying said taxes all of their life in order to receive the health care, I can see why it rubs the wrong way when a "foreigner" can get the same benefits after only being there a short time. Having said that, I have no idea how long one has to wait after moving there to take advantage of the system.

After 5 years the foreigner doesn’t have to pay the NHS surcharge.

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:13 am**

Fraufruit wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:33 pm When a UK citizen has been paying said taxes all of their life in order to receive the health care, I can see why it rubs the wrong way when a "foreigner" can get the same benefits after only being there a short time.

Fair point but it has a flawed logic.
You could argue the same of ANY insurance system....

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:19 am**

Emkay wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:11 pm it does seem somewhat unjust that I couldn’t easily legally move back to my own UK paid for property and live off my entirely UK based pensions and savings.

I think you're looking it the wrong way. You paid for services. Instead, the rights to reside (or to vote, or to join the armed forces, or to run for public office...) are on a different basis, they're not things one can pay for.

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:34 pm**

pappnase wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:52 pm Remember that foreigners ALSO pay exactly the same health contributions as uk citizens in the form of general taxation.

Yes, fair point.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:02 am**

I thought about it once or twice as long as my mother was still alive, but when she died I could not find a reason to move back. My kids are here as well as the grandkids and I would wilt like a primrose if I couldn´t see them, also the UK would be a foreign country, I have no assets there, no family nothing that would make me want to go back. But then again, I have travelled the world and lived in many countries so, like it or not Germany will be my final stand.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:31 pm**

Auntie Helen wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 8:14 pm After 5 years the foreigner doesn’t have to pay the NHS surcharge.

As far as I know you have to pay the surcharge forever unless you apply for unlimited leave to remain.
Every visa holder no matter how long the visa is for (except under 6 months) must pay the surcharge.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:47 pm**

pappnase wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:52 pm It's just not fair.

Because if it´s not done it promotes health tourism which over the years 1000s have taken advantage of.
It´s once again one of those things where the majority of people have to suffer because of the small % of people who abuse the system.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:00 pm**

Keleth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:47 pm
pappnase wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:52 pm It's just not fair.
Because if it´s not done it promotes health tourism which over the years 1000s have taken advantage of.
It´s once again one of those things where the majority of people have to suffer because of the small % of people who abuse the system.

While that is true of many social systems such as welfare, etc., do you think that is why the NHS is such crap?

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:25 pm**

Fraufruit wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:00 pm
While that is true of many social systems such as welfare, etc., do you think that is why the NHS is such crap?

No it´s crap because of years of mismanagement.
My nephew used to work in IT for the NHS and the amount of wasting money just in that department was insane.
Btw the treatment itself from the NHS is not crap it´s the waiting for the treatment that is crap.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:55 am**

Keleth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:47 pm Because if it´s not done it promotes health tourism which over the years 1000s have taken advantage of.
It´s once again one of those things where the majority of people have to suffer because of the small % of people who abuse the system.

It's hardly tourism when you have to wait for months to get appointments.

Besides, there are other ways to deal with it such as residency. In Canada, some provinces have a 2-3 month waiting period after you move there and all of them state that you need to live there for at least 5-6 months per year to be eligible. If they catch somebody for having used their healthcare and not having stayed for 5-6 months, they can retroactively cancel health care coverage and back charge the person.

Of course that doesn't actually mean they can or will pay but much the same for any uninsured person who has a health problem in a western country. They will patch you up even if you can't pay and the cost will be spread out between all of us. However, it's the price we pay to live in a society where you don't have to step over the dead bodies of the uninsured when you walk into a hospital.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:16 am**

Keleth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:25 pm
Fraufruit wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:00 pm
While that is true of many social systems such as welfare, etc., do you think that is why the NHS is such crap?
No it´s crap because of years of mismanagement.
My nephew used to work in IT for the NHS and the amount of wasting money just in that department was insane.
Btw the treatment itself from the NHS is not crap it´s the waiting for the treatment that is crap.

Is the NHS bad? Not that I have massive experience with it, but no I don't think it is bad.
Doctors are highly paid. And they work hard and long hours. I have friends that work as Dr. OK, bad management could well be a point, but is there ANY very such hugely complex service where management is not bad?
I would say that ultimately long waiting times are just a consequences of limited resources. You can't hire more Dr if there aren't qualified Dr available.
On top of it all, the UK has been importing health care workers for decades, simply because the UK being a country richer than many these workers get paid more. Simple as that. They don't come for the weather. And not for the food.
I don't see how waiting times could realistically shorten.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:12 pm**

The Guardian reports that average rent in the UK outside London is £ 1291 monthly. The average monthly rent in London is not much less than an annual rent for a decent small dwelling in Germany.

I think I shall stay over here

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:38 pm**

Alberto wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:16 am
Keleth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:25 pm
Fraufruit wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:00 pm
Is the NHS bad? Not that I have massive experience with it, but no I don't think it is bad.
Doctors are highly paid. And they work hard and long hours. I have friends that work as Dr. OK, bad management could well be a point, but is there ANY very such hugely complex service where management is not bad?

Some things are truly dreadful. The wait for ambulance. My (nurse friend) had to wait 6 hours when her elderly mother was lying on the floor vomiting black fluid. Of course nowhere is perfect, but the NHS does seem overloaded atm. Perhaps because GPs are hard to access in some places, people end up calling ambulances for things that should have been sorted much earlier at less cost. And that impacting on real emergencies.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:47 pm**

Fietsrad wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:12 pm The Guardian reports that average rent in the UK outside London is £ 1291 monthly. The average monthly rent in London is not much less than an annual rent for a decent small dwelling in Germany.

I think I shall stay over here

Where in Germany?
London should be compared with Munich, not with "Germany". Then housing costs are probably similar.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:51 pm**

"Where in Germany?"

Off topic - I will request again that people put their locations in their profiles. It really comes in handy in many conversations.

Of course I understand that some may have reasons for not doing so.

Thank you.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:48 pm**

Under 300€ a month in Ostdeutschland, perhaps not in Leipzig or Dresden but in Mittelstädte, middle-sized towns.

Comparable to small towns in Scotland perhaps. I wonder what rent one might pay in Tillicoultry or Kincardine or Clackmannan. Or Stoke-on-Trent (England)?
..
£ 1291 a month is about € 1400. Seems quite a lot, who pays that much rent?

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2024 10:05 am**

Fietsrad wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:48 pm Comparable to small towns in Scotland perhaps. I wonder what rent one might pay in Tillicoultry or Kincardine or Clackmannan. Or Stoke-on-Trent (England)?

Looks like 400 to 600 GBP for a one bedroom. You can have a look on https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent.html

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2024 12:13 pm**

You have to understand a lot of people in the UK are skint

If an old Brit goes to Thailand and marries a young Thai girl, then as his wife, he brings her back to the UK, they have several kids.

Then the older BRIT dies, without any money, so the UK tax payer than has pay for the Thai girl and kids for 10s of years. The UK Government does not like this, thats why they have the law, that you cannot bring a poor wife in to the UK, unless the partner is earing enough, that if something unfortunate should happen, there should be enough money, to help paying with the costs.

Personally I can agree with both sides. You only get full access to the system if you are a BRIT, foreigners get a worse deal

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