State School choices in Germany

[dstanners]

Hello,
Couldn't find this as an existing topic, but it has come up in a few discussions over the years.

The reason I am (re)starting it now, is that (not for the first time) I'm struggling with kid 1. Both my kids go to the local gynmasium, but my oldest has found it pretty tough going. He got through the first three years at the school ok, but there has been a general downward trend with his grades, and it would take an improvement from him in order to get through this year. German has always been his weakest subject, but now French and physics can be added to the list.

Sadly, the issues aren't purely to do with school grades. Since becoming a teenager he has become particularly difficult. As the grades have dropped, so too has his interest in making any significant effort to improve them. His behaviour at school has also become worse: nothing really "terrible", just doing stupid things which are against the rules (for example, going into out-of-bounds areas during breaks). I'm not going to claim to have all or even many answers from a parenting perspective (I know I have made and continue to make plenty of mistakes), but I can't help but think that he needs a few more positive experiences, and that maybe a change of school could help.

He's a bright kid and popular, but has become increasingly lazy. If he does well in a subject, he puts more effort in. This leaves him getting good marks in some subjects: maths, sports, art, biology (English too of course), and poor marks in the others. There's a school bus from our village which in addition to the local gymnasium also goes to the local realschule. Online it looks pretty good, and he knows a few of the kids there. My view is that it may be a bit easier for him to get better marks, and that there is the option of him switching back to gymnasium after year 10 if he wishes. The downside is that it could be a slippery slope. Today gymnasium, tomorrow real, next week haupt usw.

The other option is that there is a gesamtschule in the neighbouring town (about a 15 minute drive, as there is no school bus connection to that town). I went to a rubbish comprehensive in the UK and hated it, but that was well over 30 years ago. I like the fact that it may give him time to mature and I assume (based on my own experience) he would be put into a more appropriate group for his weak subjects whilst also being in a better group for those subjects where he is stronger. However, I've never even set foot in a German comprehensive, so I have no idea if this is accurate.

Could anyone share any recent experiences of the various secondary school forms?

[kiplette]

We used 2 Gymnasiums, a Hauptschule (which became an Oberschule after a couple of years) and a Berufsfachschule (UK Tech, I guess). A new Gesamtschule opened which we could have used for the last two, but I didn't trust it because the headmistress seemed awful on Open Day (rude to kids, parents and staff in the hour I was there. She had one job..... )

Our IGS said that they wouldn't take kids coming 'down' out of the Gymnasium, they had to start with the Gesamtschule straight from Primary. If that's true for yours, then that's one option off the table. Gesamtschulen take different forms here, you'd need to know whether yours is an IGS or a KGS and whether they allow for fluid movement between levels/subjects as our UK ones do. Likely they do, tbf.

Our experience of the Oberschule was that there was a massive effort on futureproofing the kids - what did they enjoy, what were they good at, they spent so much more time looking at possible job areas, and actually in workplace type training. It was really good and much more engaging than the Gymnasiums. Maybe your Realschule website would make it clear whether they have that kind of input. That's if you think it would be helpful for your kid.

The kids were more criminal in the Hauptschule, that's fair to say. Not necessarily nastier. If your kid already has mates in the Realschule, that's maybe the way to go.

Leaving him to go downhill in the Gymnasium seems net negative. Germany has so many ways to get qualifications and sort this aspect of life out, he'll no doubt get there in the end.

[Krieg]

Every state is a little bit different, so advice from someone in a different state might not be useful. In Berlin there is only Gymnasium and Integrated Schools, in both paths you can do Abitur, in the Gymnasium is a two year Abi and in the Integrated School you study until class 10th and end up with either what used to be the graduation from Realschule or the one from Hauptschule in the past, and then depending on the final tests you can go back to a Gymnasium and do there a two year Abi or go to a work oriented three years Abi. The big problem here is that there is a MASSIVE gap between Gymnasiums and Integrated Schools, the Gymnasiums are super hard and the Integrated Schools way too easy.

[Alberto]

Our 15yr old is in Gymnasium grade 10, and her grades constantly been bad all her school life, now 3rd (or is it 4th already?) consecutive year that she flirts with forced Wiederholung (thought never happened yet). So of course voluntarily moving her to Gemaninschaftschule (that's how is called here in SH) was also mentioned. Ultimately we never went for it. She has some friends in her current class, and she has huge difficulty in creating bonds and connecting with new people. Plus, we want that she has the chance of doing Abi. And the most convincing of my German friends told me that although after gemainschaftschule it is possible "in principle" to go back to Gymnasium and eventually make it to Abi, it is something extremely difficult and almost never happens.

Of course one could ask what's the purpose of torturing her into Abi if so clearly she's not even Uni material? Fair question, but I still rather have her doing Abi than not do. Not all Uni paths are medicine, physics, law and engineering, which indeed demand some academic side, there exist also things like art and design that perhaps different type of talent and inclination, that perhaps one student has despite far from decent Gymnasium marks. And these paths would be closed off without Abi.

Not sure is related but:
One of my German friend went to Realschule, he wasn't good for Gymnasium. Now a Physik professor, science director of a very high profile research facility.
Similar to my brother in law. At Gymnasium he was suggested NOT to go to Uni, "you are not cut for it". Now he's Maths Professor, last year he ran to become University Dean.

[Krieg]

Problem is Q1 from gymnasium Abi is very tough and can't be repeated, students that fail the Q1 have to move to do the three year Abitur. Of you can do as well a Fachabitur that allows you to study in a Fachschule (University of Applied Sciences, AFAIK). Again, I talk from what I understand in Berlin.

[snowingagain]

If he is bright and good at matth and English he should stay in Gymnasium. Could be understretched in Realschule. Sorry, have not looked, are you in Bayern? A bit different there.

[Fraufruit]

It is nice when people put their location or general location in their profiles for cases like this.

That was another PSA by Fraufruit.

[dstanners]

Firstly, thanks so much for your replies. They are all appreciated. At present I'm glad for any advice I can get as we are overwhelmed by Kid1's various issues.
We are 99% decided that there is little to be gained in the daily slog of trying to maintain "gymnasium status", given that Kid 1 is simply not prepared to put in the effort. As Kiplette mentioned, Germany seems to offer a variety of paths, and taking a different route now does not close off all options for the future. I am just hoping that some maturity will come with the passing of time.

As for my location, my village in "the glorious Eifel" is in NRW (nearest town is Bad Muenstereifel).

[snowingagain]

Sure it could work. But you need motivation to do well in Realschule too.... Best of luck.

[Emkay]

I’m sorry to read that your son is having these school issues. I’m afraid my suggestions are a bit old now. What would he like to do? Does he want to change school? Apart from German, sounds like he's doing well in other important subjects. I really don’t recall the system in gymnasium, maybe different now and/or where you live. When is it that some subjects can be dropped? It was a happy dance day when kiddo ditched French and science. If I remember correctly, for Abi, she only did maths, German and English as compulsory subjects. Art as an extra.

Nachhilfe got kiddo through as her maths was terrible. Maybe Nachhilfe can help with your son‘s German? Quite a few kids I know of get help like this. A lot of tutors are Uni students earning extra cash. Not like maiden aunt type teachers. My neighbour‘s very wayward and intelligent son was inspired a lot by his Nachhilfe teacher as he was ‘cool’ and helped to motivate. It’s a bit luck of the draw. There seem to be quite a few Nachhilfe franchises around ie Schülerhilfe. Kleinanzeigen can also help.

Sorry if I missed you already mentioning, what do your son‘s teachers recommend? In lots of schools, older students offer Nachhilfe too.

How about bribery!? I’ve heard of many bribes ranging from new gadgets to trips abroad. Get a grade above x, get xxx.

I wish you all the best.

[dstanners]

Thanks again for your thoughts.
One of my concerns is the point highlighted by Snowingagain - even if he changes school, at some point he is going to have to put some effort in, even if it is "only" a Realschule.
Sadly Emkay, whilst he is still ok at some subjects, he has now dropped down in a few others too. He managed to get a 5 in his most recent French test, which isn't a good sign (although it was a tough test), and his failure to put much effort in means he's even at risk in philosophy (religion for the non-Catholic/Evangelisch kids), which really requires little more than turning up and saying what you think is good/bad with the world.

In order to stay at their current Gymnasium, kids have to pass each year, which means passing every subject except they are allowed either 1) a 5 in one Nebenfach, or 2) a 5 in one Hauptfach PROVIDED there is another Hauptfach with a 3 or better to compensate. Failing at class 6 would lead to a recommendation to change to a different school level (not just a different Gymnasium). Failing other years leads to a recommendation to either repeat the year or change to a different school level.

Here in NRW there are generally 3 secondary school levels, Gymnasium, Real and Haupt, but increasingly Gesamtschule are becoming more popular.

Abi is possible at both Gymnasium and Gesamt, although it is also possible to switch to Gymnasium after completing Realschule (after year 10). That latter route is the one I most prefer for Kid1 at present, but sadly the local Realschule is currently full which would mean a last minute decision based on how many kids have to repeat the year or drop to Haupt in June.

Obviously, my absolute preference would be for Kid1 to finally pull his bl00dy socks up and do some work, but we are fighting on so many fronts with him at the moment, that I see little chance of success. It is good that he is popular and finds making friends easy, but that is also one of the reasons why he is quite prepared to change schools (I had hoped that he would want to stay with his friends/appreciate what he has got - it would have meant a lot to me.....but I guess I was never that popular!)

[Alberto]

Abi is possible at both Gymnasium and Gesamt

My local German friends keep telling me this is "in principle" possible, but in reality extremely difficult and it normally does not happen.
But this being Germany, perhaps it is more or less realistic depending on which particular state you happen to be.
Ideally have some chat with LOCAL German friends that know first hand the system in your area.

[snowingagain]

Perhaps Gesamtschule vary? My daughter went to one (she was borderline RS/G) which had mixed teaching for a further 2 years, and then split into G/RS/HS. Her school had a thriving Gymnasium stream, which she joined. One important thing , this was definitely streaming, not setting. So, if you were in the R section you did not get to join the G for maths or English no matter how good you were at these subjects. This is different to UK comprehensives where classes can be mixed and matched to your strengths.

[dstanners]

I have a call with the Gesamtschule admissions folk tomorrow. Whilst I hope that there would be the opportunity to go into the correct level for each subject individually, I suspect that the German system (one overall qualification, rather than individual subject qualifications as would be the case in English) would leave a Gesamtschule with just three general streams (G/R/H) as snowingagain mentioned.

[hh-sailor]

Although not quite a state school - they get some subsidies and so the fees are not too high...
I am talking about the Waldorf / Steiner schools.

I seem to remember that you'd tried these on the "old TT". Would that be something
for him ?

My 3 kids and a bunch of nephews / nieces went to Waldorf up here in SH.
They varied in academic results but all turned out enjoying what they were good at,
successful in either Uni or apprenticeships and generally well rounded young adults.

Not all Waldorf are dogmatic - and you need to go and see and ask all sorts of questions
as to whether it fits your family situation.

Just my two penne'th.

[LeonG]

There was some discussion about this in another thread not too long ago. In some states they don't have hauptschule anymore or it has been re-named. Where I live, they seem to offer the same graduations as the realschule, which are hauptschule abschluss after 9th or 10th grade or realschule abschluss or realschule extended after 10th grade. The extended realschule abschluss gives the right to enter gymnasium in the 10th or 11th grade.

I have no idea how common it is to pull that off but if the kid isn't motivated like it seems here, it's definitely not happening. However, he could change his mind at some point. A former co-worker told me about his kid who just barely scraped by to complete realschule, did an apprenticeship, worked for a couple of years and then did a fach abitur and went to university. His other kid had no problems in gymnasium and completed the abi easily but then decided not to go to uni and do an apprenticeship instead.

[kiplette]

Perhaps Gesamtschule vary? My daughter went to one (she was borderline RS/G) which had mixed teaching for a further 2 years, and then split into G/RS/HS..... This is different to UK comprehensives where classes can be mixed and matched to your strengths.

I think this is KGS rather than IGS. It's a big difference. IGS is more common.

Following what OP said about the one Abschluss rather than one per subject in the UK, I do presume that there is still some kind of Abi streaming going on in the upper levels, even in IGS.

Those suggesting only Gymasiasten do Abi - there are many ways around it - if the school has the right to offer Abi, it's not problematic at all. If the school can only do Real or erweiterter Real, then there will likely be some kind of Berufsschule offering FachAbi or even a go at erweiterter Real and then an allgemeine Abi as per normal Gymnasium. That's all beside the point if he's not interested.

It's tricky. Forcing a kid to make effort is really difficult. A friend of mine was sent to boarding school when this happened to her, and I remember an old TTer doing that with a kid. I presume that's extremely expensive. There's a private school in OP's nearest town, but that is very expensive. Also the kid still needs to make effort, even when the classes are small and the attention much better.

Leon's story about the kid doing something else first and coming back to school later might be more the pattern. Or not coming back, just making their way through an apprenticeship route.

[Krieg]

Abi is possible at both Gymnasium and Gesamt

My local German friends keep telling me this is "in principle" possible, but in reality extremely difficult and it normally does not happen.
But this being Germany, perhaps it is more or less realistic depending on which particular state you happen to be.
Ideally have some chat with LOCAL German friends that know first hand the system in your area.

I am sorry to be this bold, but this is basically BS. This kind of mentality only hurt the kids and it is unfortunately repeated and repeated in English speaking forums and social media groups. At some point the kid will grow up and understand the system by himself and resent the parents for putting so little effort in the kid's education that they didn't even bothered trying to understand the education system.

Just think about it, there are WHOLE SCHOOLS dedicated to provide Abi to kids who didn't make it to the Gymnasium Abi, do you really think almost no one graduates from those schools. Plus there are plenty of kids that were kicked out of the Gymnasium half way and then they go back to the Gymnasium to do the Abi there because they succeeded getting a Gymnasial MSA. Then there is Fachabi. And then you even can do a late Abi, which is the path for the kids who left the school before starting the Abi did a few years of whatever (apprenticeship, work, sabbatical, etc) and then decided they wanted an Abi but feel they are "too old" for the normal path, so they go the "Abi nachholen" path, which in some cases you can even do it remotely.

There are really many paths to do an Abitur and there is no reason for any kid not been able to do it. In most cases when they do not do it is because they have no interest (or because no one explained the system to them and they didn't care enough to find out themselves). I suggest you research more in your state, ask families with multiple kids, and ask different families, because normally people only know what they experienced themselves.


P.S., And I intentionally skipped talking about parents with Gymnasium elitism.

[dstanners]

One of the (few) downsides of living in the Eifel is that there aren't tonnes of nearby schools.

Sadly both the local Real and the (relatively) nearby Gesamtschule are full at present, so we'll only know if a change is possible in June, which is a pity. That said, I've spoken with Kid 1 about it, which hopefully will encourage him to put some effort in to this school year where he is.

HHSailor mentioned Waldorf schools, and there is one not too far - I know this because both kids actually started school there (I ended up on the school Vorstand too). It wasn't a particularly dogmatic school fortunately, but ultimately these schools have to be right for the kids (and parents), and it wasn't right for us.

There isn't a private school in Bad Muenestereifel, so that isn't an option for us either.

I've asked a few locals here, and as Krieg and a few others have mentioned, there are (fortunately) some non-Gymnasium routes to Abi around here, the most common being dropping to Real until year 10 and then returning. Dropping to Real (or Haupt) and then going to a Berufskolleg after year 10 is a popular route for the less academic Fachabi too (I now know a few people whose kids have done this).

So - there are quite a few pathways for schooling. Now I just need to find some way to help motivate my kid to do some bl00dy work. I saw from Emkay's suggestion that bribery can work, and I agree that it can. However, the last few years have seen me trying a range of threats and bribes to an extent that would make a leader of a military junta blush. Fundamentally he just needs to pull his d"mn socks up and accept that school work (and life in general) actually requires some bl00dy effort.

[LeonG]

So - there are quite a few pathways for schooling. Now I just need to find some way to help motivate my kid to do some bl00dy work. I saw from Emkay's suggestion that bribery can work, and I agree that it can. However, the last few years have seen me trying a range of threats and bribes to an extent that would make a leader of a military junta blush. Fundamentally he just needs to pull his d"mn socks up and accept that school work (and life in general) actually requires some bl00dy effort.

Sometimes, it just takes time to kick in. I dropped out of school and worked for 2 years before realizing that I'm not going to make any money at the bottom of the food chain and I better change my game plan. Sometimes, kids are just not ready. Talking openly to him about salaries and cost of living might help but even then, if he's not ready, he's not listening.