Including English working years in German pension insurance

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alma.freya
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Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

This'll be one for @GaryC if we are still fortunate enough to have his expertise available on the new Toytown (love the logo).

A few months ago I received a letter from the German Pension Insurance authority asking me to provide information about the missing years in my pension history. These were years I was studying and working in the UK (I am a British citizen). I sent them as much proof as I could, and also gave them my UK national insurance number. I understand that while these years don't provide any extra Points towards my German Insurance, they do count as years, meaning I can reach 35 or 45 years worked, which would enable me to claim my pension earlier. Very nice.

I first received a letter in 2021 after working here for 5 years. I received another letter in 2022 with my pension information, but nothing in 2023. I recently signed in to the online German Pension Insurance portals in the hope that I could view more information about my pension.

https://kundenportal.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de
https://app.rentenuebersicht.de

I was happy to see that they do have information from the UK totalling 736 weeks (14 years).
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Q: Do all of these weeks now count towards my total number of years worked by the German Pension Insurance? 14 in the UK + 8 in Germany = 22 years.

I also attempted to generate my German Pension information on the portal, however I was greeted with the following messages. So unfortunately I am unable to see my German Pension information. Could this be because they are still processing my file?
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by PandaMunich »

alma.freya wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:30 am I first received a letter in 2021 after working here for 5 years. I received another letter in 2022 with my pension information, but nothing in 2023. I recently signed in to the online German Pension Insurance portals in the hope that I could view more information about my pension.

https://kundenportal.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de
https://app.rentenuebersicht.de

I was happy to see that they do have information from the UK totalling 736 weeks (14 years).

Q: Do all of these weeks now count towards my total number of years worked by the German Pension Insurance? 14 in the UK + 8 in Germany = 22 years.
Yes.

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alma.freya wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:30 am I also attempted to generate my German Pension information on the portal, however I was greeted with the following messages. So unfortunately I am unable to see my German Pension information. Could this be because they are still processing my file?
Within 5 days of you having done an "Anfrage" in the Tab "Meine Anfragen": https://app.rentenuebersicht.de/meineAnfragen
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you should see in the "Gesamtübersicht" of the "Digitale Rentenübersicht": https://app.rentenuebersicht.de/gesamtuebersicht
  • the guaranteed DRV pension you have earned up till now (Garantiert erreicht),
  • what your guaranteed pension will be if you continue paying in at the same rate as in the past (Garantiert erreichbar)
  • an optimistic pension forecast (Progonistiziert erreichbar), which is extremely unrealistic, since that one would depend on the pension system taking in more money once you retire than it does now, which will not happen since the number of people contributing is going down, not up
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If more than 5 days have passed since your "Anfrage", I suggest you call DRV and ask what's the matter.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

Thanks. I made a request on Friday and the status was immediately abgeschlossen. I'll wait a week and see if the information appears
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Last edited by alma.freya on Wed Apr 09, 2025 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by GaryC »

I'm still here, or here again, on our shiny new board.

There are 2 sides to what you set out.

First there is the pre-working/post-17 UK education/training time where you provided evidence to DRV. That would be added to your German record (while also, potentially, forming part of your UK record, though university time in the UK shows only as a gap in your record). It might also add Entgeltpunkte to your German record, not just Wartezeit, depending on the nature of the education/training. If you have a Rentenauskunft it should now show an "innerstaatlich Berechnung" based on your German record and you should see those study periods in there. It should also have a "zwischenstaatliche Berechnung", that would show the aggregation of your UK and German records - see below.

Then there is the aggregation of your UK and German records. This is used in the zwischenstaatliche Berechnung and aims to create a contiguous record from when your UK record started when you turned 16, until you reach German pension age. The UK works on weeks (even though only full years count for UK pension purposes) and Germany works on months (you need 60 months, 420 months, or 540 months for the 3 different pension options) and if there is a contribution on at least 1 day of a month, that month counts. So, given how the UK year is April to April and can have 52, or 53 weeks, the German system is Jan to December with months, and some of your UK education may be shown in both records, you should see a table setting out how the two systems are aggregated to create that contiguous record and also showing which overlaps have been disregarded. You are correct in saying that this aggregated total will be what is used to get you to 420 or 540 months absent contributing for that long in Germany.

When you come to claim your pension (or ask for a Rentenauskunft) you should see 2 calculations over oodles of pages. They are the innerstaatliche Berechnung, which is the amount of pension you would be due looking only at your German record (including those UK periods of education/training that were added). This is the same calculation they would do for a German resident who had never worked abroad and in EU regulatory terms is called the "Independent Benefit".

Then they do a zwischenstaatlich Berechnung, which assumes all contribution periods were in Germany (using that contiguous aggregated record) to arrive at a "theoretical amount" of pension. This is apportioned based on your actual German record. In EU terms, this is the "Pro-rata Benefit".

You pension (or pension forecast) is the higher of the two and because of how the German system/rules work, it is possible that the Pro-rata benefit is a higher amount than the Independent benefit, i.e. your UK years add Entgeltpunkte as well as Wartezeit.

As I mentioned, you should see this in your Rentenauskunft, which they provide periodically, unless you request one in between.

When you claim your pension at 63 or later, using your aggregated years, you will not see the detailed innerstaatlich Berechnung if you do not meet the 60, 420 or 540 month requirement without aggregation, as the answer would be zero, so they save at least half a forest of paper!

If you are having trouble sleeping, there are some really good training products on the DRV website, aimed at their staff. https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung ... _node.html. Have a look at number 30 "Über- und zwischenstaatliches Recht, Auslandsrenten" which covers the above. On the other hand, just drink a bottle of wine and slowly drift off to the land of nod...
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

Thanks, that'll require a re-read for certain.

I also received approval to pay class 2 NC in the UK last week. I'm just waiting for my 18 digit reference number which I assume is sent separately.

In the screenshot from my original post, the DRV have very specific dates and weeks. Can I assume that they retrieved these from the UK pension system directly? If so, do they still require evidence of education and employment during these times? I already completed the form and sent what evidence I could, but I don't know if the data from the screenshot was taken from my form or pulled directly from the UK system (HMRC).
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by GaryC »

Re-reading should help you sleep, lol.

Re Class 2, have you checked which years will improve your pension? All years 2016/17 onwards will (subject to then reaching the maximum of £203.85 per week) but 2006/07 to 2015/16 may not, if you were paying into a contracted out workplace pension before 6 April 2016. We can work that out if you need to.

The letter should tell you about payment. From abroad you don't need the 18-digit reference and can pay by SEPA as far as I know. You use your name, plus NI number plus a couple of letters, I think.

Looking at your German data, the original screenshot looks to be from your NI record. It looks as though you have NI Credits for 2000/2001 and 2001/2002 (years in which you turned 16 and 17?), then for the next tax year you got NI Credits but also worked for 8 weeks. For 2003/04 there are no credits but you worked for 7 weeks. Then for 2004/05 you again have no credits but worked for 23 weeks. Then 10 years of work before leaving work/UK in October 2015?

I would therefore suggest that it doesn't show your education periods added to your German record and is just a reflection of your UK record for aggregation purposes. Your German record starts at October 2015, whereas, if your UK education periods had been added, it would surely have periods before that. Your next Rentenauskunft, or the output from your Kontenklärung, should paint the full picture. If DRV needs more evidence, they should ask for it.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

I set up a direct debit for the class 2 payments which will be taken every 6 months. However I think the shortfall has to be paid manually.
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Yes I was born in 85, so i have NI contributions for 01 and 02, worked part time while at university until 2008.
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I suspect the DRV need some extra time to process the form I sent them along with the evidence.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by GaryC »

Yes, the shortfall has to be paid as a lump sum, or, lump sums. I think you need to pay at least a year in full each time but given the Class 2 amounts, paying the whole shooting match may not be too painful. Although some years can be paid after 2025, the price will increase for those years to the price for the year in which you pay if that is more than 1 year after the end of the year in question!

Your record shows that all years 2006/07 to 2015/16 are full, so you can pay all 7 years in the knowledge they will help. If you have a pension forecast and any figure for COPE (see link about paying into a contracted out pensions scheme below the 3 lines saying about amounts you can get if you pay various NI years), I can work out how many post 2016/17 years you need, i.e. subject to any change in the law, when you can stop paying those class 2 future years.

One thing to consider, is whether, at some point in the future, you intend to return to the UK to work. If you do, then paying Class 2 now may be wasted if you will fill the years you need to get a maximum pension through mandatory NI at work - just something to run through your head. Probably impossible to answer and £180 per year for the next few years (increasing with inflation) if not the end of the world!
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

Returning to the UK is an interest point, considering I am currently getting divorced from my German wife, and my future is now completely uncertain, and I only moved here originally for her. There isn't much keeping me here, but there is also not much for me in the UK. I think I'll pay the years up until now as it isn't much money. I tried using the website from the letter but they ask for the 18 digit reference number.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by GaryC »

Sounds like a plan. I don't think you can pay via the website without an 18-digit reference but I am also not sure it can take non-UK bank details and I think (I have only used it once) it takes you to your UK banking app via "open banking". A simple bank transfer using the reference system on the letter should be fine though.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

I have a wise account with a UK bank number so that should work for me.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by GaryC »

Hopefully, as long as it participates in open banking, so the HMRC webpage can pass you through to it. Will be interesting to see what happens when you come to pay.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by Franklan »

alma.freya wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:30 am This'll be one for @GaryC if we are still fortunate enough to have his expertise available on the new Toytown (love the logo).
OK. You 'love' the new logo. What 'bell' does it ring? :-)
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

GaryC wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:30 pm Sounds like a plan. I don't think you can pay via the website without an 18-digit reference but I am also not sure it can take non-UK bank details and I think (I have only used it once) it takes you to your UK banking app via "open banking". A simple bank transfer using the reference system on the letter should be fine though.
I made a payment from my UK Wise account to the IBAN provided under Overseas payments using the instructions provided here:
Use your National Insurance number followed by ‘IC’, your surname then your initial. If your bank limits you to a certain amount of characters, you should use your National Insurance number followed by ‘IC’ and as much of your surname as possible.
https://www.gov.uk/pay-class-2-national ... k-transfer

Do you know how long it takes HMRC to associate this payment with a shortfall year?

Using gov.uk is always a delight.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by hh-sailor »

alma.freya wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:40 am Do you know how long it takes HMRC to associate this payment with a shortfall year?
Using gov.uk is always a delight.
I pay annually in May and it takes them a couple of months to show on the UK site.

Good for you that you're getting all this sorted out some 30 years before you need it!
:D
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

We can thank Martin Lewis who promoted the voluntary payments and I think also pushed for an time limit extension due to the overwhelming popularity.

I have 7 years to pay, however I only paid 1 because I wanted to see how long it would take and if it was correctly added to by NI record. Perhaps I should just pay them all now.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by GaryC »

Or keep the money in the bank earning interest for a while - everything is frozen until 5 April 2025.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

GaryC wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 1:50 pm Or keep the money in the bank earning interest for a while - everything is frozen until 5 April 2025.
Oh yes even better. I still have 4% Tagesgeld with Consors until the end of the year.
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by alma.freya »

GaryC wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:07 pm Rentenauskunft
Ok I have an update. I recently completed the Consideration of periods of school education and periods of educational training measures form and I now have a Feststellungsbescheid from DRV which includes the following information:
B Monate für die Wartezeit (Mindestversicherungszeit)

Danach sind zu berücksichtigen:
- 111 Monate Beitragszeit
- 13 Monate Anrechnungszeit
- 136 Monate Beitragszeit nach den Rechtsvorschriften eines anderen EU-Mitgliedstaats
- 35 Monate gleichgestellte Zeit nach den Rechtsvorschriften eines anderen EU-Mitgliedstaats
295 months / 24,58 years
D Altersrenten

Die Altersrente für langjährig Versicherte kann gezahlt werden, wenn
- das maßgebende Lebensalter erreicht und
- die Wartezeit erfüllt ist.
Die Wartezeit für diese Rente beträgt 35 Jahre mit Beitragszeiten, Ersatzzeiten, Anrechnungszeiten und Berücksichtigungszeiten. Diese Wartezeit ist derzeit nicht erfüllt.
Es fehlen noch 10 Jahre und 5 Monate.

Die Altersrente für besonders langjährig Versicherte kann gezahlt werden, wenn
- das 65. Lebensjahr vollendet und
- die Wartezeit erfüllt ist.

... lots of text ...

Die Wartezeit von 45 Jahren ist derzeit nicht erfüllt.
Es fehlen noch 35 Jahre und 9 Monate.
Am I correct that the DRV have accepted my years of employment and education in the UK and these years are now included in my German Wartezeit?

Do you know why Die Altersrente für langjährig Versicherte and Die Altersrente für besonders langjährig Versicherte show Es fehlen noch 10 Jahre und 5 Monate and Es fehlen noch 35 Jahre und 9 Monate, respectively?

I can now also:
  • Download the Rentenauskunft & Versicherungsverlauf from the DRV. They display the same information as the Feststellungsbescheid
  • View my "Gesamtübersicht" on the "Digitale Rentenübersicht" website
The Versicherungsverlauf now shows the months in the right column which match the months listed under B Monate für die Wartezeit:
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Re: Including English working years in German pension insurance

Post by john_b »

alma.freya wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:30 am A few months ago I received a letter from the German Pension Insurance authority asking me to provide information about the missing years in my pension history. These were years I was studying and working in the UK (I am a British citizen). I sent them as much proof as I could, and also gave them my UK national insurance number. I understand that while these years don't provide any extra Points towards my German Insurance, they do count as years, meaning I can reach 35 or 45 years worked, which would enable me to claim my pension earlier. Very nice.
I retire at the end of 2028, so am starting the same process, recently paying off the gaps in my UK NI contributions before last week's deadline.

Concerning the requirement of the DRV to fill in the "Lückenauskunft" for the periods I was studying / working in the UK, an English friend based in France told me that I need to contact the "Future International Pensions" hotline in the UK and they will supply an official certificate that will explain all the gaps for the DRV.

https://www.gov.uk/international-pension-centre

Has anyone here taken that route? (apologies if I overlooked a post that dealt with this already)
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