Work harassment

[BigLebowski]

Hello all,

I discovered only now that the toytowngermany disappeared.
I actually used it for so many years and it was such a good place. I hope this forum will flourish as much as that one.

Either way. This is half a rant and half a request for advise.

At work I am harassed and bullied, I am really fed up of the behavior and I want to ask you some help. I am even considering to leave, but all the times it is me trying to work and some ****head that has to unload his frustration or sociopathy at work. If I have to leave, this time I want to fight and kick asses before I do. It cannot be that the bullies create toxic environment, damage other colleague's reputation and all the times and get away with it. Fuck them!

There is not an event that is overly relevant, but there are many single little ones that globally are making my life impossible, my performance decrease and my overall loyalty towards my company disappear. In particular there is a colleague, lets call him Collegue A (whose technically skills really are actually impeccable) but that besides his skills also wants to shine by damaging the reputation of others or bulling them.

Perhaps the easiest is to enumerate the events, not in a particular order of relevance or timeline, but altogether this is making my stay in this job difficult if not impossible.

- During a "crisis" with a customer I have engaged some engineers that had more experience in a particular product for help. While we were discussing, "Colleague A" joined our group uninvited and told in a loud voice "perhaps you should try and find the solution by yourself, as the professionals do". And everyone sneered or openly laughed. He caught me by surprise, I was terribly offended and at the same time in that moment I even though that he might have had some reasons. So I actually left the room.

- I was assigned some work that did not fall into our team area of responsibility, I went to my manager and told "hey this goes to team B, I assigned it to them". With a half voice, so that only him and my manager could hear clearly, he said in half a whisper "dodged!". And they both chuckled.

- At a site, while we were handing over a device that would now fall under my responsibility, it took me a moment to understand a rather complex configuration (no moment, a completely fucked-up and uselessly complicated one. Then I simplified it) and I asked some explanation to him more times. At some point he started to say in a loud voice - "My_name helloo! are you hereee??". Being one of many provocations I raised my voice but I have not gone beyond professional behavior and I screamed him "Hey! you don't have to have this attitude with me! This is impacting our professional performance and it is impacting the work I am called to do!" I was out of myself, but I managed to keep it professional apart from the fact that I was screaming. There he got scared and remained silent, also because physically he is half my size. I actually let the episode go, but he reported it.
My manager took his side and wrote my "end of year" notes remarking my lack of professionality and asking me to improve and have a more professional behavior. Jesus!

- During an online meeting my line had a glitch and my face got stuck in a funny way with half opened eyes. After 2 minutes I come back to the meeting and I find that "colleague A" took a screenshot of my face and put it in the meeting's chat.
Ok, haha, kindergarten joke. Funny when you have the psychological maturity of an 11 y/o.
After a while, we discuss about something that I think users should not do and that we should ask everyone. He adds a new version of that picture with a balloon, where I say that "customers should not do that". I get pissed off and in the same common chat I write "Ok, now you take that off". He does. After a minute my manager notices the chat and says "no moment, I have not seen it. Let me see it too!" so he puts it back, they all laugh and then he removes it.

- On top of this my manager often ignores my emails and doesn't respond.

So my question: does this qualify as mobbing/harassment in Germany? what are my options here?

Thank you for any advise or help.

[alma.freya]

Document everything and go to your Betriebsrat. If you don't have a Betriebsrat, speak with a lawyer specialising in employment law. Don't go to your companies HR department; they represent the companies interests, not your interests.

[LeonG]

Definitely document everything, time and date, who was there, who said what etc. It will help a lot for later if you go to a lawyer with this.

When you say "this time" you want to fight, is this something that has happened to you repeatedly in different workplaces?

[Big_Lebowski]

Definitely document everything, time and date, who was there, who said what etc. It will help a lot for later if you go to a lawyer with this.

When you say "this time" you want to fight, is this something that has happened to you repeatedly in different workplaces?

(new account, I have lost the one above and pw reset doesn't work)

I know I have a rare psychological stance (for reference: https://www.wikijob.co.uk/features/usef ... sonalities), so often I am misunderstood for an underdog or a victim.
Until I normally put people in place, however, putting people in place is not something I like to do. On the contrary. I assume that everyone is as cooperative as I am (although I clearly know that this is not true, this is my general/unfiltered take of people).

I have to say: in general I have only gained. I am in a position I could only dream about years ago, and I have a very good paygrade. So, if I have left jobs in the end was all to my gain. But yes, sometimes I had to leave positions because I did not like how managers or colleagues were behaving with me.

[Escafusa]

First of all, sorry to read about what you are going through. No one deserves to be treated like that.

The work environment sounds toxic and mobbing or bullying seems to have become the norm in your workplace - that's really unfortunate and has a massive negative effect on the company and its workplace atmosphere. Bullies are all around us, unhappily, in many aspects of life. They know who they are.
What you describe is typical of a workplace where the bullies have found safety in numbers and again, unfortunately, they seem to have targeted you.

You need to weigh up the situation carefully and think about not only your health, but your mental health. Currently a lot of your focus, day in day out, will be on this very tense and ongoing and draining situation. Is it worth using up so much energy on this and on these dreadful people? I very much doubt it. You and your mental health come first. If I were in this situation I would walk away. No job or pay grade is worth (further) compromising your health.

Mobbing can be extremely difficult to prove. It's unlikely that colleagues who will continue to work there will feel they can back up your complaints. And why waste time and money on a lawyer and legal proceedings? No matter how much you record or document everything with times and dates, the situation is not going to change by doing that.

I was in a similar situation years ago (before I came to Germany) and my solution in the end was to walk away, but with a twist. I knew I could get two years' pay out of them for what they were doing to me as compensation. My view is that no one should have to go through mobbing and it is totally unacceptable - but it is difficult to change the system and to eradicate such a toxic environment. So I punished the company financially for what they did and here's how...

Now I have never worked in Germany, so I have no idea how long (and how much) an employer has to pay you if you go off sick. I went off sick and simply continued to renew the sick note so that they kept paying me. After two years it was converted to disability benefit (since it was deemed I could not recover) - and as per their own rules (which I knew nothing about when I first went off sick) they have to continue paying me indefinitely, without the need for me to provide a sick note! So as you see, mobbing in the end can cost a company a heck of a lot of money! In the first year the pay was 100%, in the second year it was 80% and from the third year it drops to 70%, (50% paid by the company and 20% by the state's disability benefits system which kicked in) and continues like that until retirement age or until the victim/recipient is deemed fit to work (partially or entirely). Technically I am still their employee but have not been in the office since 2011!
Again, you'll need to check how this part of things works in Germany - as I've never been in the German system so can't comment further.

And your case is different though, I feel you want to work and get on in your career - the mobbing in my case didn't allow me to do that, so I gave up. But you could utilize the time that you go off sick to look for a better job. There must be better workplaces out there where mobbing does not go on, right?

Mobbing destroys lives. Don't let this company destroy yours. You can't get your time 'wasted' at that company and on those bullies back again - ever.

[LeonG]

I know I have a rare psychological stance (for reference: https://www.wikijob.co.uk/features/usef ... sonalities), so often I am misunderstood for an underdog or a victim.
Until I normally put people in place, however, putting people in place is not something I like to do. On the contrary. I assume that everyone is as cooperative as I am (although I clearly know that this is not true, this is my general/unfiltered take of people).

I have to say: in general I have only gained. I am in a position I could only dream about years ago, and I have a very good paygrade. So, if I have left jobs in the end was all to my gain. But yes, sometimes I had to leave positions because I did not like how managers or colleagues were behaving with me.

So how do you put people in place then? If you are considering beating the snot out of him in the parking lot after work, that will definitely put him in his place. However, also likely get you fired and in trouble with the police. If you can put him in his place with words, why not? Your current method of dealing with him doesn't seem to be working too well. You need some new tactics here.

It seems like you like your job. If you could get this guy to lay off, would you stay?

[LeonG]

Now I have never worked in Germany, so I have no idea how long (and how much) an employer has to pay you if you go off sick. I went off sick and simply continued to renew the sick note so that they kept paying me. After two years it was converted to disability benefit (since it was deemed I could not recover)

In Germany, the employer is on the hook to pay you for 6 weeks. Some employers even have insurance to cover that. After 6 weeks, the krankenkasse takes over and you get 70% of your gross income for up to 72 weeks. The employer can lay you off in the meantime based on long term illness and it being unlikely that you will return to your job. The KK is also unlikely to want to continue to pay for 72 weeks so they will require you to go to a rehabilitation program for 3-4 weeks. The reha may label you unfit for work or possibly fit for work at another job, possibly limited hours or duties. If it's the former, you continue on sick pay until your 72 weeks are up although the kk could still try to stop paying you. If the reha or later kk deems you fit for work or your 72 weeks expire, you end up on unemployment where they will try to find you another job that fits your limitations if any or if you can not work, you can apply for disability. Your disability payments from Deutsche RentenVersicherung depend on how much you've paid in. If it's not enough to live off, you can apply for a welfare top up once you've depleted most of your savings.

[Sam-I-Am]

Sorry to hear about your situation, that sucks.

My own recommendation on top of the other suggestions here is to get legal insurance if you don't have it already. If you have 'issues' with an employer and want to threat or actually take them to court lawyers can get expensive. There isn't a 'no win no fee' option I found in Germany.

Usually employment lawyers charge about €250 for an initial fact finding session and from there can advise on your options. BTW if you don't have insurance most have a waiting period of 3 to 6 months once you sign up.

Check Feather and Getsafe, both have websites in English and cover up to at least €500,000 for from €15 per month

[Escafusa]

In Germany, the employer is on the hook to pay you for 6 weeks. Some employers even have insurance to cover that. After 6 weeks, the krankenkasse takes over and you get 70% of your gross income for up to 72 weeks. The employer can lay you off in the meantime based on long term illness and it being unlikely that you will return to your job. The KK is also unlikely to want to continue to pay for 72 weeks so they will require you to go to a rehabilitation program for 3-4 weeks. The reha may label you unfit for work or possibly fit for work at another job, possibly limited hours or duties. If it's the former, you continue on sick pay until your 72 weeks are up although the kk could still try to stop paying you. If the reha or later kk deems you fit for work or your 72 weeks expire, you end up on unemployment where they will try to find you another job that fits your limitations if any or if you can not work, you can apply for disability. Your disability payments from Deutsche RentenVersicherung depend on how much you've paid in. If it's not enough to live off, you can apply for a welfare top up once you've depleted most of your savings.

Thanks for that good post. Wow, so very little protection for the employee/victim here! Just glad I wasn't here when it happened to me.

[Big_Lebowski]

So how do you put people in place then? If you are considering beating the snot out of him in the parking lot after work, that will definitely put him in his place. However, also likely get you fired and in trouble with the police. If you can put him in his place with words, why not? Your current method of dealing with him doesn't seem to be working too well. You need some new tactics here.

It seems like you like your job. If you could get this guy to lay off, would you stay?

Yes I would be happy, but the chances of my manager firing him are low. They go along. Classic sociopathic tendency in corporations. The s***heads tend to look competent and assertive and they often tend to be promoted. There are uncountable studies about that.

In a previous job they wanted to promote a team manager from someone in the team. I offered my candidacy not because I wanted to be a manager, but because I did not want a specific guy be the manager. He was a similar person. But of course, it goes without saying that they took him.
I left that team immediately, luckily it was a large enough corporation to offer alternatives.
After 6 years he has been fired, he is an alcoholic, he has taken something like 30kg of bodyweight and he had one of the highest turnover both in team members and customers. For those who stayed it was a hell basically from the 20 ppl team I knew, there are now only 3 former colleagues. Not that I didn't see this coming.

I am not so primitive to resort to violence, but trust me, it is not a pacifist stance here. Only a simple calculation.
It would all be bad for me and too good for him. Although he is half my size and would not stand a chance, I am never going to touch him, this would be such an own goal and an easy win for him.
I agree that words did not help. Even if I can intimidate him and put him in place this "reactivates" him and makes him even more vengeful.

So, I think I can step up in my career now and find a new job in a higher position with some new company. I would have not done that, but ok.Time for a better paygrade. I can do it.

However, I am going to take legal advice first.

[Franklan]

I know I have a rare psychological stance (for reference: https://www.wikijob.co.uk/features/usef ... sonalities), so often I am misunderstood for an underdog or a victim.

It always rings a bell when people...

A) declare themself to be special
B) expect other people to change
C) convey that they are "mobbed", when B) doesn't happen

For some people, the difference between "they don't understand what I say" and "they don't obey what I say" is unfathomable...

[Big_Lebowski]

It always rings a bell when people...

A) declare themself to be special
B) expect other people to change
C) convey that they are "mobbed", when B) doesn't happen

For some people, the difference between "they don't understand what I say" and "they don't obey what I say" is unfathomable...

Thank you for your comment, I actually agree with you.

I also don't like the self-absolving people.
If I am mobbed or not - and in spite of the fact that the above looks "mobby" to me - I also agree with you that is not for me to say.
For this, since the justice system was invented, there is the court.
And I am pretty sure this is the place where I am going to discuss if this is a mobbing case or not.

Regarding the personality trait, I had a different intention. I wanted to stress that it is rare. The INFJ trait is about 1.8% of the population, rare and special are not the same thing (plus, ok, you may even tell me that the Myers-Briggs scale is not universally accepted).
Probably for this reason it is also often misunderstood. The fact that I am co-operative and tend to trust/help is not a weakling trait. It may elicit the underdog feeling, thus the psychopats lurking around think that they can abuse us. But that's a mistake.
We are the sting in the velvet, the peril in the shadows, the sharks in the abyss, we fare deep and invisible. They think they can go for the easy kill, but when they realize the magnitude of the mistake it is too late to regret just jocking ....maybe

My best friends are all ex-colleagues. As I said INFJ here, you would like to work with me. But nice and moron are not the same thing.

[alma.freya]

We are the sting in the velvet, the peril in the shadows, the sharks in the abyss, we fare deep and invisible. They think they can go for the easy kill, but when they realize the magnitude of the mistake it is too late to regret just jocking ....maybe

Perhaps you can gather everyone at your workplace and repeat this. I'm sure then they'll start respecting you.

And I thought INTJs were cringe.

[Franklan]

We are the sting in the velvet, the peril in the shadows, the sharks in the abyss, we fare deep and invisible. They think they can go for the easy kill, but when they realize the magnitude of the mistake it is too late to regret

That's from the movie Pulp Fiction, isn't it? Jules (Samuel L. Jackson) says that before shooting the dude who betrayed the kingpin...

[alma.freya]

We are the sting in the velvet, the peril in the shadows, the sharks in the abyss, we fare deep and invisible. They think they can go for the easy kill, but when they realize the magnitude of the mistake it is too late to regret

That's from the movie Pulp Fiction, isn't? Jules (Samuel L. Jackson) says that before shooting the dude who betrayed the kingpin...

This is actually in one of the deleted scenes where Jules and Vincent are debating whether INTJ or INFJ are superior. Marcellus promptly tells them to shut the fuck up because Myers–Briggs Type Indicators are pseudoscientific nonsence.

[Big_Lebowski]

That's from the movie Pulp Fiction, isn't it? Jules (Samuel L. Jackson) says that before shooting the dude who betrayed the kingpin...

No I wrote it this afternoon!

[Big_Lebowski]

This is actually in one of the deleted scenes where Jules and Vincent are debating whether INTJ or INFJ are superior. Marcellus promptly tells them to shut the fuck up because Myers–Briggs Type Indicators are pseudoscientific nonsence.

This is great! I cannot stop laughing!

[LeonG]

This is actually in one of the deleted scenes where Jules and Vincent are debating whether INTJ or INFJ are superior. Marcellus promptly tells them to shut the fuck up because Myers–Briggs Type Indicators are pseudoscientific nonsence.

Haha, that's so good